Posted on Jul 29, 2019
Should the GRE be required for Captains Career Course? What is the benefit of this?
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No especially if you already have a grad school degree. Also test scores do not determine if you are better or worst than the next guy.
Personally I already have a career and the last thing I want to do is study for a GRE
Personally I already have a career and the last thing I want to do is study for a GRE
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MAJ Samuel Weber
CH (CPT)(P) (Join to see) three Masters! You really need to figure out what you want to be when you grow up (lol). But seriously, the message says that officers must have GRE test scores on record. It doesn’t clarify if they need to take one in CCC. So I’m sure if you have one, they will except it. I’m just confused why everyone is so upset that the Army is making opportunities for officers? This is what we have been fighting for. You’re an example of this, the MSW program you’re in didn’t exist 10 plus years ago, now it does, giving officers yet another opportunity to advance themselves. I recommend you look at it from that point, plus, never say never. You may decide in 10 years you want to pursue your DSW...
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CH (CPT)(P) (Join to see)
MAJ Samuel Weber I want to be a Family Life Chaplain, so an MDiv, an MTS with a concentration in pastoral care and counseling, and now the MSW (clinical degree that I’m pursuing on my own, same as the other two) are all related. Is the Army paying for us to take the GRE? I took it once in the fall of 2001, but I never needed it because although my GPA isn’t stellar, it was high enough for what I needed. Although I’ve considered a PhD, I am just not sure that will work with my career projection of choice, but I have indeed learned to “never say never.”
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MAJ Samuel Weber
CH (CPT)(P) (Join to see) I would assume that if the Army requires it, then they will pay or Soldiers will be able to claim reimbursement. Good luck, your choice of an MSW is an excellent choice. Most Chaplains focus on MFT because they have a counseling focus. But an MSW has such a clinical focus and really helps counselors do a better assessment of a persons needs and helping them connect with local and federal resources. Good luck.
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CPT (Join to see)
CPT Enrique M. - EXACTLY!!! It is FRAUD, WASTE, and ABUSE... I was having this argument with someone earlier. For their anonymity, I will not include their name or rank, but they wrote the following as an argument:
"I know people who have completed Masters programs in which they never wrote a single paper and were assessed via Blackboard exams and discussion boards. There’s also questions over who’s the person really sitting at the computer doing the work. That said, there’s just too much disparity between graduate programs to make exceptions."
My response was: "Isn't ethical behavior and integrity still 'a thing'? Additionally, how do you complete a Masters program without a written component?! That is suspect at best. I will take the GRE only after exhausting all other avenues of approach. There has to be some sort of ETP. I cannot image that many individuals will be qualified for leadership roles if this becomes mandated. Furthermore, Reserve units will be worse off trying to find someone for Command positions. It is a HORRIBLE idea... I am trying to use logic here and the cost benefit analysis will not pay off with the proper dividends..."
Their other argument was as follows:
"Are you looking to remain in the Army beyond CPT?
In general, they don’t have to take the GRE. However, they just won’t be considered for Resident or Satellite CGSC/ILE or any Fellowship and Broadening opportunities.
The reason for the requirement is that we have Field Grade Officers who in many cases cannot write, speak, brief, or read effectively. The GRE requirement will help the Army to make better informed decisions as to who gets assigned where, and to what echelon."
My response was as follows:
"There are other ways to assess individuals. Maybe there should be new dimensions on an OER that reflect public speaking and written communication. If anyone needs assistance in these areas, I coached debate and public speaking prior to AGR. Additionally, I teach online business classes and career development skills. Furthermore, I thought this is why they developed the whole AIM system... for talent management."
Thoughts?
"I know people who have completed Masters programs in which they never wrote a single paper and were assessed via Blackboard exams and discussion boards. There’s also questions over who’s the person really sitting at the computer doing the work. That said, there’s just too much disparity between graduate programs to make exceptions."
My response was: "Isn't ethical behavior and integrity still 'a thing'? Additionally, how do you complete a Masters program without a written component?! That is suspect at best. I will take the GRE only after exhausting all other avenues of approach. There has to be some sort of ETP. I cannot image that many individuals will be qualified for leadership roles if this becomes mandated. Furthermore, Reserve units will be worse off trying to find someone for Command positions. It is a HORRIBLE idea... I am trying to use logic here and the cost benefit analysis will not pay off with the proper dividends..."
Their other argument was as follows:
"Are you looking to remain in the Army beyond CPT?
In general, they don’t have to take the GRE. However, they just won’t be considered for Resident or Satellite CGSC/ILE or any Fellowship and Broadening opportunities.
The reason for the requirement is that we have Field Grade Officers who in many cases cannot write, speak, brief, or read effectively. The GRE requirement will help the Army to make better informed decisions as to who gets assigned where, and to what echelon."
My response was as follows:
"There are other ways to assess individuals. Maybe there should be new dimensions on an OER that reflect public speaking and written communication. If anyone needs assistance in these areas, I coached debate and public speaking prior to AGR. Additionally, I teach online business classes and career development skills. Furthermore, I thought this is why they developed the whole AIM system... for talent management."
Thoughts?
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I see no real short-term problem with this. It is not required to attend the CCC, but is required to be taken once attending the CCC. So, it's more of a built-in part of the CCC rather than being a pre-condition of attending. The main benefit is that the GRE will serve as yet another data point that can be helpful in selecting the right officers for subsequent advanced civilian and military schooling opportunities. Given that the Army is funding the cost, the officer is not being handed an unfunded financial requirement. Long-term, it can be problematic. Standardized tests have been shown to have biases, as well as not always being the best predictors of success.
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CPT (Join to see)
Sir,
I agree that all the points you presented were logical; however, the Army as a whole keeps complaining we don't have funds to train and supply personnel with the proper equipment, but they want to piss away money on an exam that does not necessarily demonstrate an individual's skillset. I don't agree with this as a method due to the fiscal irresponsibility. There are better alternatives than a standardized test to determine qualifications. As you mentioned, the benefits of this requirement are negligible...
Very Respectfully,
CPT Edward Krohn, MBA
I agree that all the points you presented were logical; however, the Army as a whole keeps complaining we don't have funds to train and supply personnel with the proper equipment, but they want to piss away money on an exam that does not necessarily demonstrate an individual's skillset. I don't agree with this as a method due to the fiscal irresponsibility. There are better alternatives than a standardized test to determine qualifications. As you mentioned, the benefits of this requirement are negligible...
Very Respectfully,
CPT Edward Krohn, MBA
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This strikes me as one of those things the Army does for you (like paying you twice a month or scheduling your dental appointments) that you NEED but might not otherwise do yourself. Graduate degrees are becoming more and more commonplace in our formations (as they become more and more required to obtain quality civilian employment), and the exposure one gets in any masters program to higher-level thought and analysis will only improve their capacity for management and decision making. If you’re going to be sitting somewhere for an extended period of time (i.e. an active duty CCC), might as well log this small win and at least begin to consider what that next educational hurdle will be. Just try to avoid the MBAs, gang — I’m happy to explain to anyone who’s considering that route why you’d be better off with a Masters in Basket Weaving.
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LTC Kevin B.
CPT (Join to see) - It's up to you whether or not you remain on this site. If you remain, you need to adhere to the RP posting guidelines. Upholding those guidelines is not an abuse of power; it's actually the reason why SSG(P) James J. Palmer IV aka "JP4" and I are administrators. Furthermore, you were the person who made the unprofessional comments. You first attacked a credential that many RP members have (or are interested in pursuing) without giving any justification for it. Then, when asked to provide that justification, you launched an unprovoked personal attack. RP exists to help fellow service members and veterans. Be helpful, or find another website to frequent.
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CPT (Join to see)
LTC Kevin B., if only you did a little bit of due diligence before engaging. I have an MBA myself, and work in the field that a most top-tier MBAs flock to. I never "attacked" the credential, however I see how someone your place in academia can feel attacked any time someone calls out the needless cost you add on the back of countless veterans each year. Feel free to continue peddling your life decisions as the best ones; I'll stick around and actually be helpful to my fellow veterans looking to transition effectively into today's job market.
To the others following along, two more vets have scheduled calls with me after seeing this thread. If you are transitioning, start picking up the phone and talking to people. There's a bit of self-selection at play when you only converse with the types who hide behind their keyboards. And if you want some truth surrounding MBA from someone other than an MBA program manager, I'm always happy to chat.
To the others following along, two more vets have scheduled calls with me after seeing this thread. If you are transitioning, start picking up the phone and talking to people. There's a bit of self-selection at play when you only converse with the types who hide behind their keyboards. And if you want some truth surrounding MBA from someone other than an MBA program manager, I'm always happy to chat.
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LTC Kevin B.
CPT (Join to see) - Again, you are completely grasping at straws here. You know absolutely nothing about my opinion, because I haven't articulated it. I wanted to hear your thoughts before chiming in with mine. You refuse to provide your thoughts on this board (aside from the negative, yet vague, remark about MBA programs). You also know absolutely nothing about my role in academia, aside from what you checked out on my LinkedIn profile (and any assumptions you've made based off that minimal digging). You also know absolutely nothing about my motivations, or any advice that I give on a regular basis to service members and veterans. You are completely speculating on everything.
If you have issues with your past decision to pursue an MBA, that is on you. Speak for yourself, and stop trying to assign an unsupported opinion to me that suits your preferred narrative.
If you have issues with your past decision to pursue an MBA, that is on you. Speak for yourself, and stop trying to assign an unsupported opinion to me that suits your preferred narrative.
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2LT (Join to see)
I would agree that this is an example of Army doing something for you that you would otherwise need if I did not already have two master's degrees.
It's also of note that Army offers a joint MHA/MBA through Baylor, primarily for those wanting to go the 70A route.
It's also of note that Army offers a joint MHA/MBA through Baylor, primarily for those wanting to go the 70A route.
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