Posted on Mar 5, 2014
Should the military grant a 4 year "General Studies" degree to soldiers whom have served in the Armed Forces?
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I am currently working with a LTC who is pursuing his PhD and at current, is posing a question for a research paper about the military partnering with higher education institutions with the question above.
In an economy with a financial crisis, and knowing that a four-year degree is starting to become the “standard” certification for employment beyond the military, should the military actively push this initiative?
I know from my experiences, working on the civilian government side, that it is virtually impossible to switch to a GS grade job without a degree. With all of the training and education that the Armed Forces provide for its SMs should that equate to an earned degree after service? If so, why? And how long should
the soldier serve before earning a “general studies” degree?
In an economy with a financial crisis, and knowing that a four-year degree is starting to become the “standard” certification for employment beyond the military, should the military actively push this initiative?
I know from my experiences, working on the civilian government side, that it is virtually impossible to switch to a GS grade job without a degree. With all of the training and education that the Armed Forces provide for its SMs should that equate to an earned degree after service? If so, why? And how long should
the soldier serve before earning a “general studies” degree?
Posted 12 y ago
Responses: 119
Sir, I like your question !! Having just looked at my AARTS transcript recently I got I think one credit for physical education and that's after spending a few years pounding the pavement,. The ACE is skewed in their lack of usefulness to military personnel in my opinion. I think something more useful would be at least the award of an Associates level degree in Military Studies. This would be beneficial in that almost all service members would receive credit towards higher level education. The problem with that is there is not enough writing and math skills that I used in basic and AIT to warrant the award of such a degree. This however would definately make much more sense at ANCOC, if they still call it that, for example where there is more course work and time for an accelerated class load. This idea has the potential to retain more service-members since civilian education is almost a requirement for most job promotions. Once again I think formalizing some of your practical education in the military would go a long ways in my eyes.
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LTC Joseph Gross
The ACE gives four hours of electives for completion of Army Basic Training, one hour of electives for Airborne School and does pretty well with evaluating military training that has some usefulness in the civilian world. For a year of language study, you can receive 24 hours of college credit. That's not too bad.
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SGT (Join to see)
hmmm, Okay Sir maybe I will take another look at my scores but to me ACE credit was pretty worthless as far as the time and effort I spent learning and doing my job.
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LTC Joseph Gross
Some degrees don't cross over into the civilian world very well. It is understandable that an Infantry Private simply isn't going to get a lot of credits while an Intelligence Analyst is going to do much better. Sucks but it makes sense.
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I think an Associates would be acceptable. When I used my GI Bill it didn't even cover my Associates degree. It wasn't a lot but I still had to pay 7k on top of everything after pell grants. Everything from boot camp, MCI's and MOS schools counts for something. The American Counsel of Education provides quality assurance and policy guidance to the Army, Navy, and
Marine Corps for military transcripts. More than 2,300 colleges and
universities recognize these transcripts as official documentation of
military training and experiences and applicable ACE credit
recommendations.
Now I'm not saying it should just be handed out after 4 years. The service member should still have to show an interest in higher education while enlisted and use the Tuition Assistance program while in garrison and if possible while deployed.
Marine Corps for military transcripts. More than 2,300 colleges and
universities recognize these transcripts as official documentation of
military training and experiences and applicable ACE credit
recommendations.
Now I'm not saying it should just be handed out after 4 years. The service member should still have to show an interest in higher education while enlisted and use the Tuition Assistance program while in garrison and if possible while deployed.
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Sgt Wilby Wolfson
You did your gi bill wrong then. My Gi bill covered a four year degree and 2 years of law school; the yellow ribbon program is handling he rest. The GI Bill is wonderfully flexible, but you have to put in the time and research to make it work for you. Just signing up and letting your VA rep at your school handle it is a good way of throwing your benefits away.
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Sgt Matthew O'Donnell
Or that's all the VA would cover for the type of degree I went for. It covered my tuition, labs, materials, uniforms, certification tests and tools. I could have made it stretch to a better degree, if i choose a different field. I got my monies worth, I work in my field of study.
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PO3 (Join to see)
I got a certificate, 2 Associates, and 2 Bachelors with my GI Bill (then I did grad school with a state program for vets in TX). It's all about finding what degrees can compliment one another, what classes will count where, and knowing how to play the game...
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After 20 years it should be automatic at the very least. I see way too many college grads who have terrible grammar and math skills, cannot find Canada on a map and have cannot form an original thought, but demand mid-level management positions because they are 'degreed'. Further food for thought... a college degree obtained 10 years ago is about as valuable as your high school dipolma. Unless you've kept up with your skills your degree is a great reminder of days gone by.... Military people are forced to stay current. Some jobs in the military are more technical than others.. some more professional than others and some stressfull or dangerous than others, but all require skill, dedication and leadership to be successful. That should be rewarded.
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CWO2 Shelby DuBois
Agreed. And its incumbent on those of us who have thier ear, to pound employers to include "or cognizant military skills' in job descriptions instead of 'Degree required'.
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SSG Mike Angelo
LTC Joseph G., The academia environment in the U.S is very competitive, even in an online and virtual classroom. With APA writing formats, TurnIt In apps for anti-plagerism, earning and obtaining the desired degree either brick n mortar or online is a tough and committed process.
My thought on X-Box is that gaming has evolved in the military from my lens and viewpoint. There is much to research on crafting game theory in the 21st Century for both military, commercial and private use.
It appears that we have some very talented gamers out there that may contribute their gaming experience to live fire operations. There are degree granting institutions for game development, design, programming.
The military should look into providing education centers with guidance and direction for this phenomena as well.
My thought on X-Box is that gaming has evolved in the military from my lens and viewpoint. There is much to research on crafting game theory in the 21st Century for both military, commercial and private use.
It appears that we have some very talented gamers out there that may contribute their gaming experience to live fire operations. There are degree granting institutions for game development, design, programming.
The military should look into providing education centers with guidance and direction for this phenomena as well.
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Sgt Wilby Wolfson
Absolutely Not!!!!! Most higher learning institutions (the good ones anyways) are not about teaching knowledge, but rather about thinking critically, understanding and applying analysis within context, and dealing with the World. The Military does the exact opposite. The military teaches and instills instant obedience to orders, without critical thought. The military micromanages and does things "by the numbers" so that analyzing isn't required (except maybe executive or programmatic level positions and certain limited MOS's). And military members are insulated from the "real world" by the bubble of the military institution.
Now before anyone gets angry that I am denigrating the military, none of these are bad things. They are exactly what makes US service members survive in combat and help all branches operate more efficiently. But they are antithetical to the purposes of matriculating into a higher educational institution. It would be interesting to know how many vets had to deprogram to some extent before they could thrive in a school environment (impromptu poll...); I did.
So no, even though an enlistment may potentially provide invaluable experience, personal growth, and particularized knowledge, it is not the same as what a degree denotes within our culture. Granting a 1-term enlistee a degree is unfair to the soldiers getting them because they can't live up to what the degree represents to the rest of the world about them.
Now before anyone gets angry that I am denigrating the military, none of these are bad things. They are exactly what makes US service members survive in combat and help all branches operate more efficiently. But they are antithetical to the purposes of matriculating into a higher educational institution. It would be interesting to know how many vets had to deprogram to some extent before they could thrive in a school environment (impromptu poll...); I did.
So no, even though an enlistment may potentially provide invaluable experience, personal growth, and particularized knowledge, it is not the same as what a degree denotes within our culture. Granting a 1-term enlistee a degree is unfair to the soldiers getting them because they can't live up to what the degree represents to the rest of the world about them.
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CWO2 Shelby DuBois
I disagree. And we are not going to change each others mind so this is simply an exercise in futility. And this argument usually comes down to career military with no degree who now have to face the civilan world with a DD214 instead of a diploma and college grads who feel their parchment is somehow less valuable if someone else is given a similar piece of paper without them having had to rub elbows with frat/Sor members, live the dorm life or do the late night study sessions...etc.. If at the end of the day if either can perform the same job successfully, why all the heartache?
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no, in fact I think the military shold take a look at the current colleges offering "degrees" and "credit" for certain military activities.
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I do not believe that institutes of higher learning should grant such a degree.
First, such a hand-out would necessarily cheapen the degree, and likely be viewed as a "so what" by potential employers. Second, such a grant would do nothing to prepare the member, through experiencing the rigors of collegiate academics at the undergraduate level for success at the post-graduate level. Third, it detracts from any sense of accomplishment in going "above and beyond" to obtain an undergraduate degree.
Like many of my enlisted brothers and sisters, I earned my bachelor degree while working in my unit, supervising Airmen, and raising a family. I'm proud of that accomplishment. Others interested in furthering their education should not be deprived of the same sense of accomplishment just so everyone can have a "gimme."
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No, I fear that would provide a false sense of security for those that serve and say that they have a "degree." The real world experience of serving provides valuable experiences for those who pursue a degree during or after service. I don't think that service can be compared to a rigorous academic program, nor should it be. They seem to be great complements, not substitutes.
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Do i believe that anyone should be given anything just for doing something? No... If that where the case why dont Mcdonald Employees get degrees for working at a McDonalds for 10 years? <br><br>That being said... There could be a system that would use military Schools, courses, and programs to help/create an opportunity for soldiers to complete a degree easier than it currently is. <br><br>I think this would depend on the Military Job/specialty. And i do believe that this would be possible to create. a few others explained why this wouldn't work. How about entertaining how and why it could work. <br><br>Infantry spend a lot of time learning security measures, and the rules of engagement. which you could possibly transfer over to something such as a Security Management Degree. <br>A cook can work towards a nutrition/food service degree. There are degrees that can match up plenty of occupation specialties in the military. <br><br>SO we have the basis that we can connect the two. Now how do we do this. Ill use my MOS as the example. <br><br>I am a 25S. Satellite Communications. If the Signal School at Ft. Gordon ensured that the courses where taught to coincide with a Nationally accredited University we would then begin receiving credit for our time in the school house. <br><br>Now say that what you learn in the School House and ALC Phase 2 are both accredited... and part of the same process and ensure that ALC Phase 2 tests the growth that would be required for any OJT that would be required to happen or expected to happen over the time between AIT and Phase 2. (the University of Phoenix calls these tests a "<span class="st">Prior Learning Assessment").<br><br>Now you have a standard for your "Major" This would require beefing up AIT and Phase 2 a little bit, but produce a ground work for future learning. <br><br>Now for the rest of the Course work... T</span>he school then can create a component list of what the soldier is required to do, to finish the degree. at which point a standard is set for Yearly/promotion requirements for each degree that would require the soldier to work continuously over the course of his or her enlistment.<br><br>Using the SSD system require certain courses/phases to be complete to move to the next iteration. These would be your more basic or standard courses. Math, Science, History, Writing Comp. Ect. so at the end of the six years that a soldier has spent in the military they will have Earned a Degree by doing the course work over time. <br><br>I understand the Some MOS have shorter AIT and some have longer but at each one you have certain focuses that may or may not be applicable to a Course of study. If the MOS does not coincide with any degree at all a General Military Science degree can be used. <br><br>If you made this mandatory it could have severely negative affects, however if you made this a program that a soldier could opt into or Enlist for the results may be better. <br><br>That being said i do believe that ALL military courses should be connected to an accredited college that provides credit for each class, and when the soldier that does not want to be a part of this program walks away from the army they still have some college credit from his or her service. <br><br><br><br>
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SSG Oliver Mathews
I agree, its not the Military's job to provide me with anything thats not in the contract. Its my responsibility. but what is the problem with the ground work being done to assist that soldier? <br><br>That being said there are already military programs that are accredited by colleges that provide direct College credit. And perhaps they will require the course ware to be updated/improved in order to be accredited. which would only do one thing at the end. Make things better. <br><br>How hard would it be to Get all courses accredited? I am not talking about the one hour skill port course. But 4 week PLDC/WLC? I have seen people take two or three courses in that time and end up with 6-12 credit hours.... Thats 4 weeks of professional and leadership development. that's easily 3-6 credit hours of an elective or management class. <br><br>Think about this. It takes on Average 8 years for an Active duty soldier to get 120 credit hours for a degree. The average number of classes that have to be taken Per bachelors degree is between 32-36. That is 4 courses a year. without interruptions of PCS or deployments. And yes you can get it faster i have seen it... I have also met someone that has been working on it for 12 years. <br><br>And as for the argument about Civilian Employees... A lot of Corporate jobs offer intensives to get people educated. UPS does for sure, its how my cousin got his degree. <br><br>But the Main rebuttal to your Civilian argument? I have never seen a Corporate job hiring the average man that requires that man to leave his family and risk his life to free the people of another country. Even Most Police forces offer Pay intensives for college work. And many of the Police Academies are ACE accredited. <br><br>----------------<br><br>I hate when people try to equate the military to civilian life. At the end of it all. If the belief is that "Civilians dont have it so why should the military?" Then answer your own question and go to Verizon and remove the 10-15% Military/Veteran Discount. Remove yourself from GovX and Standard Issue. And stop going to the local VFW. I mean if a Civilian doesn't get it, then why should the military? Right? <br><br><br><br>
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Base it on the NCOES or OES Schools completed, and years of service say 2 year degree at 4 years with completion of WLC, 4 year Degree at 6 or more years service with completion of ALC and at least one other school (EO, Safety, ETC) And stop the practice of taking college kids who went through ROTC got a degree in underwater basketweaving and making them officers. Recruit officers from the middle - senior NCO ranks and from Military Academies.
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SSG (Join to see)
College is overrated for most occupations as well. Most employers these days prefer experience over a degree. I am also a full time college student with quite a few deployments, so that makes it hard to get the time do consistently do college courses. Experience out weighs somebody who can read a book any day.
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SGT (Join to see)
I agree experience outweights college in most cases (I have both), but if you perfer experience over a degree and say college is overrated than why are you trying to give away degrees for free. So you think degrees are worthless but are asking for a DEGREE based on service....(That would make them more worthless) There are things you learn in a "book" that you may not come across with your everyday experience. You get out of college with what you put into it.
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1SG (Join to see)
I will take someone with OJT experience and no degree over someone with a Masters or any degree at that and No experience. All a Degree means is that you know to 'Google"
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I think it depends. If you do 3 years then I think you should get a 2 year Gen Degree but if you do 4 or more then I think you should get the 4 yr degree in Gen Studies. All the training and military schools are valuable. We learn more in the military then most students learn in college. We are able to apply numerous training to everyday life in which an 18-22 year old college student only knows what a book tells them. They have no work experience and do not really know how to trouble shoot in real life scenarios.
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Sgt Wilby Wolfson
Absolutely Not!!!!! Most higher learning institutions (the good ones anyways) are not about teaching knowledge, but rather about thinking critically, understanding and applying analysis within context, and dealing with the World. The Military does the exact opposite. The military teaches and instills instant obedience to orders, without critical thought. The military micromanages and does things "by the numbers" so that analyzing isn't required (except maybe executive or programmatic level positions and certain limited MOS's). And military members are insulated from the "real world" by the bubble of the military institution.
Now before anyone gets angry that I am denigrating the military, none of these are bad things. They are exactly what makes US service members survive in combat and help all branches operate more efficiently. But they are antithetical to the purposes of matriculating into a higher educational institution. It would be interesting to know how many vets had to deprogram to some extent before they could thrive in a school environment (impromptu poll...); I did.
So no, even though an enlistment may potentially provide invaluable experience, personal growth, and particularized knowledge, it is not the same as what a degree denotes within our culture. Granting a 1-term enlistee a degree is unfair to the soldiers getting them because they can't live up to what the degree represents to the rest of the world about them.
Now before anyone gets angry that I am denigrating the military, none of these are bad things. They are exactly what makes US service members survive in combat and help all branches operate more efficiently. But they are antithetical to the purposes of matriculating into a higher educational institution. It would be interesting to know how many vets had to deprogram to some extent before they could thrive in a school environment (impromptu poll...); I did.
So no, even though an enlistment may potentially provide invaluable experience, personal growth, and particularized knowledge, it is not the same as what a degree denotes within our culture. Granting a 1-term enlistee a degree is unfair to the soldiers getting them because they can't live up to what the degree represents to the rest of the world about them.
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CW4 Robert Goldsmith
I'm sorry, but I must disagree. An associate's degree in general studies requires six credit hours each of English, math and science. I worked in technical MOS' my entire career, yet I still took the aforementioned or their equivalents in college. I did well in my Physics class so I went to the Education Center and took the DSST for Science so that I would not have to spend 12 weeks in another science class plus the lab work and wasted TA. I also took an English CLEP so as not to waste valuable time and TA funding for a subject in which I was already proficient. Anything good and long lasting is earned. You can't just get a degree because you showed up for work. If that's the case, then give the Shift Leader at McDonald's a degree for working their way up from the deep fryer, grill and cash register. They too have skills that are necessary to feed all too busy and in a hurry Americans. It doesn't mean they deserve a college degree for them though.
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Maj Bruce Pawlak
I respectfully must disagree as well. If the military gives away degrees in exchange for service the degrees will NEVER be respected in the civilian world. In order to be anywhere close to legitimate they must be accredited via a US Dept of Education recognized accrediting agency... and no agency in that category would accredit a program that just gives away degrees in exchange for service. It's ok to grant credit for schooling and experience, however it must also contain the usual general education coursework.
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I wouldn't say a 4 year General Studies, but I think with the training we receive we should at least have an Associates degree in general studies.
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PVT (Join to see)
I respectfully disagree. Some of the core requirements for even an Associates Degree would be college algebra and english 101. There are service members in the very highest ranks who can't do basic math, nor can they formulate a complete, coherent sentence. Awarding even an Associates Degree for someone who would be unlikely to pass those classes in a traditional setting is setting them up to be accountable for information they have not demonstrated a mastery of.
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MAJ Alvin B.
Inter service coordination, funding and a memorandum of understanding, I suspect. You may wish to check online to see if you can enroll in one of the CCAF courses (worst cas ethever answer may be no, but it may be worth a try).
As to the finances -'Take the CLEP and DANTES exams (when I served they were free to active duty). I used them to earn 36 semester hours of college.
As to the finances -'Take the CLEP and DANTES exams (when I served they were free to active duty). I used them to earn 36 semester hours of college.
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