Posted on Dec 2, 2014
Should Veterans receive special treatment in Court after committing a crime?
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In most states, the Court is recognizing Veterans that have committed a crime and offering a different type of program to them. (In line with the probation that they may already be granted). How do the masses feel about it?
I understand the specialized need for treatment for certain Veterans and that everyone should be treated as an individual, on a case by case basis, which I hope is how this would be carried out by all, but for those with significant criminal histories, should they get the specialized options?
I understand the specialized need for treatment for certain Veterans and that everyone should be treated as an individual, on a case by case basis, which I hope is how this would be carried out by all, but for those with significant criminal histories, should they get the specialized options?
Posted >1 y ago
Responses: 195
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I'd say yes, if the situation were such that the person's status as a veteran was something the court should consider.
Veteran's Courts for situations where a veteran acted out due to PTSD or injury have been very successful getting veterans to help instead of putting them in jail.
Veteran's Courts for situations where a veteran acted out due to PTSD or injury have been very successful getting veterans to help instead of putting them in jail.
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SGT Charles Letness
SSG Conaway,
This is an excellent post. What you said is spot on. I have dealt with this constantly. I have a degree in Business Administration and although I received a few interviews (And interviewed well I might add), I have yet to receive a job offer from any meaningful, serious stateside company. I made an experiment one day and didn't put down my Iraq service in my resume (I worked both in the field and behind a desk in operations), which has a lot of translatable skill that could really yield substantial results for anyone I work for and lo and behold I landed a job. It wasn't a great job, but something just for the meantime. I'm not suggesting that anyone hide their service just to get hired, but it seems sad that some veterans feel that is what they need to do just to land a meaningful job they are more then qualified to do and educated for. I am currently working in SE Asia as an ESL instructor because I want to travel a bit more, as I don't have a family of my own and now is the time to do these things, but when I eventually return home to the U.S. I will likely rely on my current networking pool to land something meaningful. I think that is one of the things that helps in securing work for those of us who do have degrees and a marketable skill. How is your networking pool by the way? Is it an avenue that you can consider in your career pursuit?
Also, I was reading an article about a year ago and read about companies that are (Or say they are) trying to hire more vets and General Electric came under considerable fire for their approach to this, which their criticism was more than warranted. They decided that former officers could apply for be hired to do white collar office work, while enlisted could only apply for and be hired for labor work, as it is the assumption of GE that enlisted folks don't have degrees. Well, many asked almost immediately the question about former enlisted folks who went to school and obtained a degree and GE still insisted that they are only able to do labor work. Then, the issue rose about those with degrees that never served and GE was stuck like Chuck. It was hysterical, stupid on GE's part, but hysterical to see these guys explain their foolhardy attempts to satisfy a public responsibility as it pertains to veterans. What's more, is that it proved that GE had no clue about the veteran's community and their attempt was simply a marketing campaign to better their image. GE has got to be one of the worst companies out there, just in terms of business conduct and decision-making. It is a good thing for them, at least in my view, that they have a fat bankroll to protect themselves during times of financial hardship, which was the case in 2008 and 2009.
This is an excellent post. What you said is spot on. I have dealt with this constantly. I have a degree in Business Administration and although I received a few interviews (And interviewed well I might add), I have yet to receive a job offer from any meaningful, serious stateside company. I made an experiment one day and didn't put down my Iraq service in my resume (I worked both in the field and behind a desk in operations), which has a lot of translatable skill that could really yield substantial results for anyone I work for and lo and behold I landed a job. It wasn't a great job, but something just for the meantime. I'm not suggesting that anyone hide their service just to get hired, but it seems sad that some veterans feel that is what they need to do just to land a meaningful job they are more then qualified to do and educated for. I am currently working in SE Asia as an ESL instructor because I want to travel a bit more, as I don't have a family of my own and now is the time to do these things, but when I eventually return home to the U.S. I will likely rely on my current networking pool to land something meaningful. I think that is one of the things that helps in securing work for those of us who do have degrees and a marketable skill. How is your networking pool by the way? Is it an avenue that you can consider in your career pursuit?
Also, I was reading an article about a year ago and read about companies that are (Or say they are) trying to hire more vets and General Electric came under considerable fire for their approach to this, which their criticism was more than warranted. They decided that former officers could apply for be hired to do white collar office work, while enlisted could only apply for and be hired for labor work, as it is the assumption of GE that enlisted folks don't have degrees. Well, many asked almost immediately the question about former enlisted folks who went to school and obtained a degree and GE still insisted that they are only able to do labor work. Then, the issue rose about those with degrees that never served and GE was stuck like Chuck. It was hysterical, stupid on GE's part, but hysterical to see these guys explain their foolhardy attempts to satisfy a public responsibility as it pertains to veterans. What's more, is that it proved that GE had no clue about the veteran's community and their attempt was simply a marketing campaign to better their image. GE has got to be one of the worst companies out there, just in terms of business conduct and decision-making. It is a good thing for them, at least in my view, that they have a fat bankroll to protect themselves during times of financial hardship, which was the case in 2008 and 2009.
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SPC Rebecca Vazquez-Lozano
I am a combat veteran rated at 100% t&p i count my nlessing evryday for the veterans court. Guilty is guilty yes i agree however i also believe its case by case and love the fact that they take into account military service and combat records as well as any ptsd,health or tbi injuries. But there are very strict guidlines as to eligibility to even be able to use veterans court as far as texas goes you have to first off have misdemeanor charges felony charges are not allowed in veterans court also have to be a first time offender and va medical records proving either ptsd or tbi. Its also called veterans treatment court not veterans court it is designed to help those who really need it and deserve it
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1SG (Join to see)
I have always felt that the best form of discipline was to use the minimum force necessary to alter the behavior. I use that with my children; I use that with my Soldiers.
In the case of crime, a judge needs to decide what kind of cat stands in front of them. My personal opinion:
1. First-time offender who made a mistake - this person is probably embarrassed by their behavior and wants to make amends. Most effective response: a mentor who can guide them away from making mistakes and give them alternatives.
2. First-time offender who is on a bad path - this person might not understand that their life is at a crossroads. Most effective response: some sort of "scared straight" program. This person needs to look into the abyss and decide to turn away... or not.
3. Repeat offender with an addiction problem (ie drugs, kleptomania, sexual offenders) - need professional help, not jail. They may struggle forever with their disorders, but with correct treatment, may be functional and not dangerous to society.
4. Repeat offenders that commit crimes for "entertainment" or some kind of "getting even with those who have things that I don't"- most likely, these people are running with the wrong crowd. Most effective: hook them up with the "right crowd". This is something the military excels at - and a reason that once upon a time enlisting was an alternative sentence.
5. Repeat offenders who are genuine sociopaths - people who have a problem and act out by attacking others. Most effective: lock them up and throw away the key.
I realize that this is a bit simplistic, but a judge has to measure what will be most effective at ending the behavior. In my opinion, mandatory sentences are wrong-headed.
In the case of veterans, there is a very high probability that they fall into a category where prison is not the right answer. A court that specializes in common veterans' issues will have a better chance to find the right solutions.
In the case of crime, a judge needs to decide what kind of cat stands in front of them. My personal opinion:
1. First-time offender who made a mistake - this person is probably embarrassed by their behavior and wants to make amends. Most effective response: a mentor who can guide them away from making mistakes and give them alternatives.
2. First-time offender who is on a bad path - this person might not understand that their life is at a crossroads. Most effective response: some sort of "scared straight" program. This person needs to look into the abyss and decide to turn away... or not.
3. Repeat offender with an addiction problem (ie drugs, kleptomania, sexual offenders) - need professional help, not jail. They may struggle forever with their disorders, but with correct treatment, may be functional and not dangerous to society.
4. Repeat offenders that commit crimes for "entertainment" or some kind of "getting even with those who have things that I don't"- most likely, these people are running with the wrong crowd. Most effective: hook them up with the "right crowd". This is something the military excels at - and a reason that once upon a time enlisting was an alternative sentence.
5. Repeat offenders who are genuine sociopaths - people who have a problem and act out by attacking others. Most effective: lock them up and throw away the key.
I realize that this is a bit simplistic, but a judge has to measure what will be most effective at ending the behavior. In my opinion, mandatory sentences are wrong-headed.
In the case of veterans, there is a very high probability that they fall into a category where prison is not the right answer. A court that specializes in common veterans' issues will have a better chance to find the right solutions.
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PO3 Bob Walsh
Contract Employment was a good source of jobs when I was working. Many companies hire through contracting firms, (Job Shops). This gives the employer the opportunity to observe you in the work place and evaluate your performance before making a job offer. You can evaluate the Company and decide if this is where you want to hang your hat. I worked the last 25years as a contract or temp employee. Many large companies and Govt. agencies hire temp employees. One Fortune 500 company was planning to employ 1 engineer as a permanent employee, to supervise 6 contract engineers. The company saves on benefits, Social Security, Vacation, etc.
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The outreach programs offered by "Veterans' Court" usually focuses on insisting on the veteran accepting responsibility for their actions and seeking the help needed to correct the behavior.
Most veterans are running into the problem of compounded issues that are getting them into trouble. Rather than it being a single act, it is a cascade effect of decisions made under less than optimal conditions. Prescription drug abuse and self-medication is usually what leads to these lapses in judgment, mainly related to untreated service related behavior patterns.
The outreach helps bring these issues to the attention of both the veteran as well as assistance programs to get the veteran help that he hasn't had before. Call it a triage.
There are already over 230,000 American Veterans serving time in prison. 150,000 will experience homelessness in the next year. Over 8000 will kill themselves.
As Veterans, we represent less than 7% of the US population. While our at risk group is smaller, a little more than 3%, proving that we are more adaptable over all, 10% of prisoners are vets, 20% of suicides, and 25% of the homeless have worn a uniform in their lifetime. I'm going to say causation here may mean a greater need to extend a hand to those veterans rather than throw them away.
Most veterans are running into the problem of compounded issues that are getting them into trouble. Rather than it being a single act, it is a cascade effect of decisions made under less than optimal conditions. Prescription drug abuse and self-medication is usually what leads to these lapses in judgment, mainly related to untreated service related behavior patterns.
The outreach helps bring these issues to the attention of both the veteran as well as assistance programs to get the veteran help that he hasn't had before. Call it a triage.
There are already over 230,000 American Veterans serving time in prison. 150,000 will experience homelessness in the next year. Over 8000 will kill themselves.
As Veterans, we represent less than 7% of the US population. While our at risk group is smaller, a little more than 3%, proving that we are more adaptable over all, 10% of prisoners are vets, 20% of suicides, and 25% of the homeless have worn a uniform in their lifetime. I'm going to say causation here may mean a greater need to extend a hand to those veterans rather than throw them away.
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CW2 Joseph Evans
In a lot of cases, the Veteran Court programs are some of the "harshest" parole/probation programs offered to "criminals". They are also comparatively expensive with continuing costs for both the state and the veteran. And in a lot of cases, failure to meet the standard does get the "book" thrown at you because of the relative danger you represent to the community. It is a "Special" treatment program, but it isn't a picnic either.
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A1C Michael King
According to a recent Gallup poll, the percentage of Veterans is closer to 14% of the total adult population. If you're including children too young to have served, I suppose we may be 7%. Still, your point is well taken that we are over-represented in both incarcerated and unhoused populations. The same is true generally for Americans of color. One fact that few people take into account is that working-class people are also over-represented in the military. Management-class and wealthy persons rarely serve. As John Fogerty pointed out in his song, "Fortunate Son", many of the loudest protestants (i.e., witnesses for, vis-a-vis against) of American patriotism are the privileged children of wealth or power (e.g., officers' kids; politicians' kids; CEOs' kids). Meanwhile, most of the people who actually enlist and serve are poor and otherwise poorly educated. All this together may suggest a causal relationship between veteran status and post-service economic opportunities.
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SFC Jeff Gurchinoff
You may want to do some fact checking on your overly poor and undereducated military Mr. King. The facts are clear that the majority of military service men and women ARE in fact well educated and that is represented by the scores posted in their ASVAB enlistment qualifications, are High School Graduates and many have college degrees that they have been incentivized to get loan repayment for. They are also NOT particularly poor as you suggest. They come from median and high income families with a sense of duty or desire to better themselves through military service and educational benefits. The extremely poor do not have a need for, nor do they qualify for military service as many of the benefits afforded military service is already provided in an effort to give them a "Hand up"
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CW2 Joseph Evans
The thing I notice for most veterans that are having trouble adapting is the lack of network and infrastructure to support them in transition. The time I spent in the service has separated me from the networking opportunities of my hometown where I decided to settle. For many this is more of an issue of who you know than what you know. If you aren't an aggressive self marketer while trying to transition, it affects you more than you know. Most of our success rates are people who stay in related fields close to military ties. When you want something different, no military reminders, it gets exponentially harder.
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Justice should never be administered automatically without due deliberation.
I have long argued in opposition to the "Three Strikes" laws. How silly to base justice on a baseball metaphor. Rigid sentencing guidelines are the result of our failure to trust our judges. Wouldn't it be better to replace the judges than attempt to determine just punishments at a distance, say from legislative chambers?
Thus, veterans who commit crimes should be judged as fairly as all other perpetrators. If they suffer a disability that influenced their criminal behavior, a disability that might mitigate the punishment rendered to any other criminal, then that should be taken into consideration. But to automatically assume that veterans suffer some sort of mental or emotional disability and because of it, their punishment must be mitigated is to assume that all veterans are somehow defective. Do you believe that? I don't...
I have long argued in opposition to the "Three Strikes" laws. How silly to base justice on a baseball metaphor. Rigid sentencing guidelines are the result of our failure to trust our judges. Wouldn't it be better to replace the judges than attempt to determine just punishments at a distance, say from legislative chambers?
Thus, veterans who commit crimes should be judged as fairly as all other perpetrators. If they suffer a disability that influenced their criminal behavior, a disability that might mitigate the punishment rendered to any other criminal, then that should be taken into consideration. But to automatically assume that veterans suffer some sort of mental or emotional disability and because of it, their punishment must be mitigated is to assume that all veterans are somehow defective. Do you believe that? I don't...
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SFC Jeff Gurchinoff
I think the program originally started in New York and that model has been adopted through word of mouth and success stories more than anything else. The first program was modeled after similar "Drug or mental health rehab" programs that incorporate mental health assistance into the court probate system. As ours is now established, the judges have the initial contact with law violators at pre trial or arraignment proceedings and can at their discretion, and the agreement of the prosecuting attorney, refer individuals to the Veterans court. At that time rather than schedule an immediate trial date, a date is set to meet with the VA and VSO reps to confirm the viability of the vets inclusion. Once it is determined the vet is a good fit in the program they proceed with Veterans court. Whatever judicial and legal measures are imposed as terms of probation and are monitored at court imposed intervals by the VA reps, Mentor, Judge, and probation officer. It provides various levels of support rather than one POC (probation officer) to monitor progress. It also mandates through the court system the vet completes any counseling or treatment in the VA system (which, without court order, the VA treatment is voluntary)
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CPT Jack Durish
@SFC Jeff Gurchinoff As I mentioned above, you need to write your own posting on this subject. It could inspire others to recreate your program in their jurisdictions. These disjointed responses to my queries are lost in the discussion that started off on a different tack.
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1SG (Join to see)
SFC Jeff Gurchinoff, Like CPT Jack Durish , I would like to hear more of this program. This is the first I have heard of it, and find it a very interesting mindset. Would like to know how it came to be implemented, other locations where is has been implemented. Thank You.
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SFC Jeff Gurchinoff
Sir, 1SG, I created a post to explain the program as best as I could. I don't navigate Rally Point often so not sure how to tell you all where to find it in here. Thank you for your interest! I really think this is a great program if not abused or misused.
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