Posted on Dec 2, 2014
Should Veterans receive special treatment in Court after committing a crime?
25.9K
635
387
29
29
0
In most states, the Court is recognizing Veterans that have committed a crime and offering a different type of program to them. (In line with the probation that they may already be granted). How do the masses feel about it?
I understand the specialized need for treatment for certain Veterans and that everyone should be treated as an individual, on a case by case basis, which I hope is how this would be carried out by all, but for those with significant criminal histories, should they get the specialized options?
I understand the specialized need for treatment for certain Veterans and that everyone should be treated as an individual, on a case by case basis, which I hope is how this would be carried out by all, but for those with significant criminal histories, should they get the specialized options?
Posted >1 y ago
Responses: 195
1
1
0
Hell no because we are the epitome of discipline, honor and integrity. We should possible reduced but never any special treatment. We fought so that all citizens could get equal treatment under the law. It should also be most considered as to the infraction, if it is a major infraction flip the switch and throw away the book but if it minor, fee and admonishment should be good enough. No one and I mean no one is above the law.
(1)
(0)
Cpl Dr Ronnie Manns
Thanks 1SG Haro, you would have said the same thing, I just beat you to it, lol.
(0)
(0)
1
1
0
Short answer, NO. My Sergeant Major (Regimental Sergeant Major who deployed with 8th Marines in 2011) once said that because we have served that we are held more accountable for our actions. That has stuck with me through the years and I have thought a lot about it and agree with him.
(1)
(0)
1
1
0
Well things like Drug court I believe yes in certain circumstances. EXAMPLE: prior to 1983 the US, didn't not recognize PTSD, therefore no real treatment (not much different today) for guys back from Vietnam, so they self medicated. Most time landing in prison when they should have been receiving drug treatment and psychological care. I personally know a person who had been using Methamphetamine to escape having to deal with nightmares.He is clean now.My point being and as whole the justice system needs to carefully review these cases.
(1)
(0)
1
1
0
SFC Collin McMillion
I think I need to refresh my simple "no" answer somewhat.....I believe the courts should carefully look at the vet and the circumstances the let up to what ever crime was committed. At least have consideration for what the vet may or may not have gone through that influenced his state of mind.
(0)
(0)
SFC Collin McMillion
I'm sorry, but I was a real mess and didn't have anyone to turn to, or even know what my own problem was because I thought I was too much man to have these problems, still I did not break the law because of them. Could not get a job, could not deal with people in general, just came to the point that dying was better than the life I was living, but still criminal actions was never considered as an option and never pursued that course of action. When you add trouble to problems and trouble you already have then it's just a HELL OF A LOT of trouble. Don't play the PTSD card, blame the military, or those around you for your criminal actions.
(0)
(0)
PO1 Aaron Baltosser
I have to go with SPC Mayhew and SPC McMillion on this one. The individual that engages in criminal action DOES make that choice. Unless they are taken hostage and a weapon is pointed at them to force them to participate, they chose that path. There is no justifiable excuse for it. Many came home with struggles inside them mentally and physically. It can not ever give them license or excuse to be criminals.
(0)
(0)
I could agree that a pretrial "Veterans court" could be useful in sending a Vet down one of two roads.... Either to one side and treated the same as the other criminals.. or to the other road, due to being determined (at least initially) that some service related "illness" or mental dysfunction: was a proximate cause for the crime... And then the special treatment for the vet would amount to a speedy path to mental/ physical health care first,,and THEN to court for the trial of their accused crimes.
I see happening like this.
Vet is caught and charged with possession of Oxy, non prescribed. Vet court determines Vet is a wounded warrior that was prescribed opiates while in, became addicted, and later discharged... sans open prescription pad serving up all the opiates they ask for.. Vet finds the same drugs on the street, gets caught.... Is he wrong? Yes? Is he responsible for his actions. YES.. are there mitigating circumstances... YES.. the requested special Vet treatment.........get him help FIRST... (if he will put in the work) then deal with the crime committed .
Does this sound like a hypothetical? .... Well its not.....its a very real event...all except the Vet court.. that part is what id like to see... the rest of the event is real.
I see happening like this.
Vet is caught and charged with possession of Oxy, non prescribed. Vet court determines Vet is a wounded warrior that was prescribed opiates while in, became addicted, and later discharged... sans open prescription pad serving up all the opiates they ask for.. Vet finds the same drugs on the street, gets caught.... Is he wrong? Yes? Is he responsible for his actions. YES.. are there mitigating circumstances... YES.. the requested special Vet treatment.........get him help FIRST... (if he will put in the work) then deal with the crime committed .
Does this sound like a hypothetical? .... Well its not.....its a very real event...all except the Vet court.. that part is what id like to see... the rest of the event is real.
(1)
(0)
TSgt Jackie Jones
But that is EXACTLY what the Vets court is trying to do and accomlish. In that hypothetical situation my recommendation would be a diversion program. That leaves the Vet to put in the work, with help and guidance from probation, substance abuse, mental health, the DA, public defender, Vet mentor, etc. This is the usual treatment team for the Veterans Court program... I see it working out great and it already has in quite a few states.
(0)
(0)
1
1
0
I think it depends on the crime. If it is something that can be explained by PTSD or just making a simple mistake then I think we should take it into account. However if there are crimes egregious enough, I believe veterans should be held even more responsible.
Let's say an officer who knows the values and held those under his or her command accountable to them violates the same ones. I think in this case they should be held more responsible since the country trained this officer.
Let's say an officer who knows the values and held those under his or her command accountable to them violates the same ones. I think in this case they should be held more responsible since the country trained this officer.
(1)
(0)
1
1
0
Perhaps for minor charges but for anything that civilians could face some serious time for, no. Too many troops today have subscribed to the "hero" label and think they are special and deserve "perks" because they slip on a set of ACU's in the morning. Once the shine wears off of the current rah-rah and it will, they need to know that their actions are not acceptable in a lawful society.
(1)
(0)
0
0
0
1. It is not a normal court. 2. It is a Veterans Court. 3. They take in to effect that you may or actually are suffering of PTSD/depression/self medication and or alcohol abuse. 3. I t is a bear- you are assigned a Vet mentor who ensures to make your appts/meetings/court appearances. You are required to go to counseling for 1 yr, you are normally required to do community service for 1 year and stay clean for that year. You miss one item and you either start over or you go to regular court. If you graduate the program- the judge can grant further probation, expunge your record, dismiss the charges- their call. This court does not cover, murder, rape, aggravated assault or attempted murder. If they have a series of crimes - they are not allowed in the program- it is mainly for 1st time offenders
(0)
(0)
Suspended Profile
I know this thread is over a year old, but I wanted to comment.
I serve in the Guard, have an incredible civilian career that affords me both the ability to fund philanthropic endeavors and to give my time for vets. Working as a mentor (and later, mentor team leader) in our county Veterans Court seemed like a great way to send the elevator back down to guys who need it. Reality is complicated; vets seem loathe to give a fully honest accounting.
Here are a few observations:
1) The mentor role can either be a joke or a real boon to prior service members (and occasionally, drilling Guard) in the program. I am 40, and am the youngest mentor in our program, and having first enlisted active duty 22 years ago, am the only one with service past the Vietnam Era. Most of our participants are GWOT veterans. For the older vets, showing up for the court sessions and taking notes seems to be about the extent of their actual involvement as mentors with these troops. It's a shirt and a hat and a warm fuzzy without any real commitment. There are about four of us that take late night phone calls like an AA sponsor would, or drive people to the VA Clinic or the VA Hospital 20 miles away. There is a kiss-ass relationship in many instances between the court staff and our mentors; whereas on paper we're to be advocates for our guys (not legal, but personal), many times in spite of that mentors will betray confidences to probation officers.
2) This Court ostensibly should help reduce one of the leading causes of veteran homelessness--criminal recidivism. It *does* put prior service members in touch with a litany of programs and services. Many of our participants live at several local rehab or transitional living centers, with beds specifically allocated for vets. We have some that are still functionally homeless, but it's generally managed.
a) Problem A - The Court is a political boon for judges (if elected) and District Attorneys. Since it can also be a liability, District Attorneys only put low risk offenders in. I fought hard to get a veteran with severe PTSD, self-medicating through that and the loss of his wife, into the program. He really could have used the care, the support of his veteran peers, and the programs, but because it was his fourth DUI, he was too big a risk. Instead, we get admitted non-combat veteran first offenders. Sorry, but some Cold War era veteran whose sole risk was incurred in training does NOT merit the same treatment as a veteran wrestling with demons acquired in combat. But that's what we get. Safe bets that don't carry a risk for the DA. And I understand this--it's a matter of public safety. But don't beat your damn chest and pretend how much you love veterans.
b) Problem B - Non-combat veterans get into the program on the merits of an honorable discharge. Nothing sets my teeth on edge than someone getting this privilege when they have zero overseas time on the DD214. Go to ARD with the rest of the DUIs, do your domestic violence time like the rest of the wife-beaters. The government never cashed the "blank check," so move along smartly and make room for guys who are drowning the screams of their buddies out with the drink, or for crying out loud, huffing industrial chemicals. We've seen it all.
3) The program encourages participants to be honest, but what they really mean is "follow the script." If a veteran is in the program because he was drinking, and he's not getting anything out of anger management, the court doesn't receive, "I cannot see the value in this" very well. It wants to hear "everything is just peachy."
4) The court places an onerous burden on participants. With the demands for appointments, paying off punitive restitution, I've seen veterans with their lives falling apart struggle to meet child support obligations. One fellow couldn't enjoy his custodial time due to court service obligations. When a veteran comes into court, again, being honest, and says, "I can't keep a steady job because you demand I go to this or that appointment at the VA that is unnecessary, my child support is in arrears, I have less than $100 a month to live on right now and I can't see my kids," it gets me so angry that there is very little to no concern for the court creating exactly the kinds of triggers. The drop out rate is high, a figure that no one is tracking. We've had suicides. The court evades accepting any responsibility or part in these things. It does not recognize that it creates many of the factors that most real 12 step programs try to help eliminate in people's lives.
5) That onerous burden also requires, as a diversion program, offenders to render a guilty plea for the litany of crimes the DA tosses at them. They might have the prison sentence deferred, but they end up paying the financial penalty for the full spectrum of charges, many of which they could defeat or reduce with the help of a sound defense attorney. As I mention above with the inability of these courts to account for or reconcile with every other obligation, when the bill comes due for restitution from the prothonotary, it's hell on these guys.
6) There is an issue, one that is surely controversial, in that minority veterans are seldom accepted into the program. When they are, at least locally, they have, to date, been far less successful than non-minority peers.
It's a program with its heart in the right place, with a lot of potential to do a lot of good.
1) It does demand drug and alcohol offenders undergo abstinence-based recovery.
2) It forces participants to do not just mandatory public service hours, but large phase packets for each of the four phases prior to graduation, as well as one big service project they set up and run. One guy started a new support group, another created a riparian restoration project, all good stuff that reminds these folks that the military imbued them with much leadership potential, and the ability to exist on a plane beyond their addictions.
3) Again, it puts vets in touch with programs that are good.
If you want to be a mentor - remember that the judge, the DA, probation and parole rely on YOU to lend them legitimacy. Our mentors, myself included, are the only folks besides the participants who serve or have served. That means we can't just sit in the back of the courtroom and nod our heads. If something is bullshit, it is absolutely vital that we stand for our participants, while remembering that many of them are highly skilled in manipulation. But it's the court's job to be cynical. Our job is to be a damn battle buddy.
I just advise anyone caught up in the justice system and considering this program to weigh the effects of pleading guilty and paying those fines, as well as participating in a program that will consume at least 20-30 hours a week in its early phases, 10-15 in its late phases, and keeps its hooks in you long after, against negotiating/reducing charges through a plea deal with the DA. If you find the considerable burden of this program overwhelming, you end up right back where you started, with no way out of a guilty plea, and the promise of expungement or sentencing deferment gone, a seriously bad move in the case of misdemeanors. If you can get in the program with felony charges (rare), do give it your best shot, but seriously think about it even for Misdemeanor 1 charges.
I'm not a lawyer, not even close - but the focus seems to be on whether or not vets merit special treatment. I would put forth is that it's not a slam dunk that it's the right kind of special treatment anyway!
I serve in the Guard, have an incredible civilian career that affords me both the ability to fund philanthropic endeavors and to give my time for vets. Working as a mentor (and later, mentor team leader) in our county Veterans Court seemed like a great way to send the elevator back down to guys who need it. Reality is complicated; vets seem loathe to give a fully honest accounting.
Here are a few observations:
1) The mentor role can either be a joke or a real boon to prior service members (and occasionally, drilling Guard) in the program. I am 40, and am the youngest mentor in our program, and having first enlisted active duty 22 years ago, am the only one with service past the Vietnam Era. Most of our participants are GWOT veterans. For the older vets, showing up for the court sessions and taking notes seems to be about the extent of their actual involvement as mentors with these troops. It's a shirt and a hat and a warm fuzzy without any real commitment. There are about four of us that take late night phone calls like an AA sponsor would, or drive people to the VA Clinic or the VA Hospital 20 miles away. There is a kiss-ass relationship in many instances between the court staff and our mentors; whereas on paper we're to be advocates for our guys (not legal, but personal), many times in spite of that mentors will betray confidences to probation officers.
2) This Court ostensibly should help reduce one of the leading causes of veteran homelessness--criminal recidivism. It *does* put prior service members in touch with a litany of programs and services. Many of our participants live at several local rehab or transitional living centers, with beds specifically allocated for vets. We have some that are still functionally homeless, but it's generally managed.
a) Problem A - The Court is a political boon for judges (if elected) and District Attorneys. Since it can also be a liability, District Attorneys only put low risk offenders in. I fought hard to get a veteran with severe PTSD, self-medicating through that and the loss of his wife, into the program. He really could have used the care, the support of his veteran peers, and the programs, but because it was his fourth DUI, he was too big a risk. Instead, we get admitted non-combat veteran first offenders. Sorry, but some Cold War era veteran whose sole risk was incurred in training does NOT merit the same treatment as a veteran wrestling with demons acquired in combat. But that's what we get. Safe bets that don't carry a risk for the DA. And I understand this--it's a matter of public safety. But don't beat your damn chest and pretend how much you love veterans.
b) Problem B - Non-combat veterans get into the program on the merits of an honorable discharge. Nothing sets my teeth on edge than someone getting this privilege when they have zero overseas time on the DD214. Go to ARD with the rest of the DUIs, do your domestic violence time like the rest of the wife-beaters. The government never cashed the "blank check," so move along smartly and make room for guys who are drowning the screams of their buddies out with the drink, or for crying out loud, huffing industrial chemicals. We've seen it all.
3) The program encourages participants to be honest, but what they really mean is "follow the script." If a veteran is in the program because he was drinking, and he's not getting anything out of anger management, the court doesn't receive, "I cannot see the value in this" very well. It wants to hear "everything is just peachy."
4) The court places an onerous burden on participants. With the demands for appointments, paying off punitive restitution, I've seen veterans with their lives falling apart struggle to meet child support obligations. One fellow couldn't enjoy his custodial time due to court service obligations. When a veteran comes into court, again, being honest, and says, "I can't keep a steady job because you demand I go to this or that appointment at the VA that is unnecessary, my child support is in arrears, I have less than $100 a month to live on right now and I can't see my kids," it gets me so angry that there is very little to no concern for the court creating exactly the kinds of triggers. The drop out rate is high, a figure that no one is tracking. We've had suicides. The court evades accepting any responsibility or part in these things. It does not recognize that it creates many of the factors that most real 12 step programs try to help eliminate in people's lives.
5) That onerous burden also requires, as a diversion program, offenders to render a guilty plea for the litany of crimes the DA tosses at them. They might have the prison sentence deferred, but they end up paying the financial penalty for the full spectrum of charges, many of which they could defeat or reduce with the help of a sound defense attorney. As I mention above with the inability of these courts to account for or reconcile with every other obligation, when the bill comes due for restitution from the prothonotary, it's hell on these guys.
6) There is an issue, one that is surely controversial, in that minority veterans are seldom accepted into the program. When they are, at least locally, they have, to date, been far less successful than non-minority peers.
It's a program with its heart in the right place, with a lot of potential to do a lot of good.
1) It does demand drug and alcohol offenders undergo abstinence-based recovery.
2) It forces participants to do not just mandatory public service hours, but large phase packets for each of the four phases prior to graduation, as well as one big service project they set up and run. One guy started a new support group, another created a riparian restoration project, all good stuff that reminds these folks that the military imbued them with much leadership potential, and the ability to exist on a plane beyond their addictions.
3) Again, it puts vets in touch with programs that are good.
If you want to be a mentor - remember that the judge, the DA, probation and parole rely on YOU to lend them legitimacy. Our mentors, myself included, are the only folks besides the participants who serve or have served. That means we can't just sit in the back of the courtroom and nod our heads. If something is bullshit, it is absolutely vital that we stand for our participants, while remembering that many of them are highly skilled in manipulation. But it's the court's job to be cynical. Our job is to be a damn battle buddy.
I just advise anyone caught up in the justice system and considering this program to weigh the effects of pleading guilty and paying those fines, as well as participating in a program that will consume at least 20-30 hours a week in its early phases, 10-15 in its late phases, and keeps its hooks in you long after, against negotiating/reducing charges through a plea deal with the DA. If you find the considerable burden of this program overwhelming, you end up right back where you started, with no way out of a guilty plea, and the promise of expungement or sentencing deferment gone, a seriously bad move in the case of misdemeanors. If you can get in the program with felony charges (rare), do give it your best shot, but seriously think about it even for Misdemeanor 1 charges.
I'm not a lawyer, not even close - but the focus seems to be on whether or not vets merit special treatment. I would put forth is that it's not a slam dunk that it's the right kind of special treatment anyway!
0
0
0
I have PTSD. With depression and anxiety disorder along with a whole host of other physical ailments from my time in. I have a service dog and medication that helps me get through the worst of it along with a support group of my friends and family. If I were to go rob a liquor store I would expect no special treatment. Then again everyone's different. Some people don't have the support structure I have and don't have the morality that was instilled in me as a child. So, no, I don't believe that every vet needs special treatment. Some might some don't. Lumping us all together as one blanket category is the same as saying all blacks are gang bangers on welfare.
(0)
(0)
Read This Next
Continue with Facebook 
Continue with Google