Posted on Aug 10, 2015
Should we consider sending ROTC cadets to attend BCT instead of ROTC CIET (formerly Leadership Training Camp)?
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Should ROTC cadets attend BCT instead of ROTC CIET (formerly Leadership Training Camp)?
What cadets are prepared for ROTC and the Army?
What cadets are prepared for ROTC and the Army?
ROTC
Leadership
Training
Basic Combat Training (BCT)
Posted >1 y ago
Responses: 36
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Sir,
I think we would be money ahead going this route. Instead of going to "LTC" as it was called in my ROTC days, I would support sending all Cadets to BCT like OCS candidates. As someone who attended BCT and was an SMP member until commissioning, I regularly found ROTC frustrating. Many of my peers lacked even basic Soldier skills or discipline. The upperclassmen were expected to teach these things, but typically had not been instructed properly themselves. While I don't think BCT is the silver bullet to fix that, it would be a step in the right direction. It would also eliminate unnecessary Cadre and infrastructure that could be better used elsewhere.
The only way for it to be feasible would be requiring a contract prior to attendance, but that's not anything new. I think BCT would be a good "gut check" as well. Soldiers deserve good leaders. If they can't handle BCT, it pains me to think how they would handle combat.
I think we would be money ahead going this route. Instead of going to "LTC" as it was called in my ROTC days, I would support sending all Cadets to BCT like OCS candidates. As someone who attended BCT and was an SMP member until commissioning, I regularly found ROTC frustrating. Many of my peers lacked even basic Soldier skills or discipline. The upperclassmen were expected to teach these things, but typically had not been instructed properly themselves. While I don't think BCT is the silver bullet to fix that, it would be a step in the right direction. It would also eliminate unnecessary Cadre and infrastructure that could be better used elsewhere.
The only way for it to be feasible would be requiring a contract prior to attendance, but that's not anything new. I think BCT would be a good "gut check" as well. Soldiers deserve good leaders. If they can't handle BCT, it pains me to think how they would handle combat.
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MAJ(P) (Join to see)
Agreed. I went through OCS myself but I believe that everyone that wears the uniform should have to go through BCT. Not only would they learn basic 10-level skills but I believe they would also learn what it's like to be a private. That would help them to make more empathetic decisions in their careers, thus helping them build good rapport with their subordinates.
I went through BOLC/OBC a couple years ago and I was only one of three prior service NCOS and only one out of seven that attended BCT. Maybe it was just my class but there was a night and day difference between those who had gone to basic and those that hadn't. Not only did they lack some of the skills that would have served them well in the course but the ones who didn't go to BCT seemed like they had no desire to be part of the team toward the end of the course. They hadn't been exposed to the events in basic that built esprit de corps and were only there for themselves.
Those are just my two cents.
I went through BOLC/OBC a couple years ago and I was only one of three prior service NCOS and only one out of seven that attended BCT. Maybe it was just my class but there was a night and day difference between those who had gone to basic and those that hadn't. Not only did they lack some of the skills that would have served them well in the course but the ones who didn't go to BCT seemed like they had no desire to be part of the team toward the end of the course. They hadn't been exposed to the events in basic that built esprit de corps and were only there for themselves.
Those are just my two cents.
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No. All cadets benefit from the leadership training camp prior to graduation and commissioning. Some cadets might find BCT a valuable supplement for training to become an officer during or prior to enrollment in ROTC. The leadership training camp exposes college students to the Army without paying them as full members of the Army and develops important skills in college students for the next step in their careers as military officers. The cadets that are prepared for the ROTC and the Army are the cadets that seek to place the country above self, recognize and acknowledge that there are hostile forces and people that seek to malign the country and its people, and stay healthy and motivated to navigate through the military bureaucracy.
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CPT (Join to see)
Thanks LTC Allen for the vote. RP is new to me. "Instead", the key word for me in LTC Rosenberger's initial question, divided my attention between the Es and the Os.
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MAJ (Join to see)
We are talking about BCT exchanged for the first two years off ROTC not to replace advanced camp right? The SMP program seems to be the best method for commissioning join the reserves start your time clock while you're in ROTC no way BCT prepares anyone to be a platoon leader.
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No. I do not believe that BCT makes better cadets because it does not focus on leader development. It is focused on making civilians into Soldiers. A cadet that has been to BCT will have some different experiences than a cadet like me who came right out of high school to college. But those experiences do not necessarily translate into leadership. While CIET has taken the place of the Leader Training Course and incorporates many of the same things, ultimately all contracted basic course cadets will go and MSIIIs will serve as squad leaders before they start CLC. So CIET and BCT have two different missions and outcomes.
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Good question sir,
As a prior enlisted I will say that there is no need for cadets to attend BCT instead of ROTC CIET. I enjoyed my basic training time way back in 1999 but truth to be told, all I learned there was how to shoot, sustain 'torture' :) and physical pain and yes drill and ceremony. Nothing I learned in basic training prepared me to be a leader the additional NCOES courses did prep to be a leader. Unless the idea is to have the future Officers smoked, I do not see any relevance whatsoever for the cadets to attend BCT
As a prior enlisted I will say that there is no need for cadets to attend BCT instead of ROTC CIET. I enjoyed my basic training time way back in 1999 but truth to be told, all I learned there was how to shoot, sustain 'torture' :) and physical pain and yes drill and ceremony. Nothing I learned in basic training prepared me to be a leader the additional NCOES courses did prep to be a leader. Unless the idea is to have the future Officers smoked, I do not see any relevance whatsoever for the cadets to attend BCT
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Interesting. I was a prior service entry so I didn't do CIET. From my recollection of Basic Training ('89), I'm not sure if that's the proper place to bring in future officers, or those that want to be officers. BCT was a vicious grinder (IMHO) to see who wanted to be a Soldier and had the intestinal fortitude to make it through. Curious, do cadets need to be contracted at that time to go through CIET? If not, BCT is a big chunk of training dollars for 10 weeks of indoctrination that the cadet could then just shrug off ROTC after graduating. With the downsizing of the force, those BCT slots will be ever more valuable for enlisted recruits to keep the force strong. I say stick with CIET to see if they want to do it then muster them out if they feel its not right for them. To harsh?
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Absolutely not. CIET, LTC, Basic Camp, whatever you call it is intended to teach different things. They are not interchangeable.
I think the more interesting question is should they ALSO attend BCT. I think the answer to that is no, for a couple of reasons - both practical. They are not going to be called on to use the same skills that a PVT-SPC will be called on to use, so it is a waste of resources to train them on same. Second is an issue of time - when would BCT be fit into their ROTC time? What would have to be dropped from academic life? And when? I could see a slight argument for it between HS Senior and Freshman year (much of BCT is foundational knowledge that it would benefit a 2LT to know...), but then what do you do for the 2 and 3 year cadets?
I think the more interesting question is should they ALSO attend BCT. I think the answer to that is no, for a couple of reasons - both practical. They are not going to be called on to use the same skills that a PVT-SPC will be called on to use, so it is a waste of resources to train them on same. Second is an issue of time - when would BCT be fit into their ROTC time? What would have to be dropped from academic life? And when? I could see a slight argument for it between HS Senior and Freshman year (much of BCT is foundational knowledge that it would benefit a 2LT to know...), but then what do you do for the 2 and 3 year cadets?
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I actually like that idea. I think it would be a great experience. Not only would they learn the basics of the Army but they would also have to interact with soldiers and have to work with others without using their rank.
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COL Jon Thompson
This would be challenging to do logistically. The Army would have to reserve about 5000 BCT slots over the summer because I don't see a lot of students volunteering to miss a semester of college. I think in theory, there is some good but practically, I do not ever see this happening.
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CPT (Join to see)
COL Jon Thompson - True. I just hope they get enough training when they hit their BOLC.
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I would say absolutely not. While some of the skills learned (marksmanship, d&c, and customs and courtesys) are sorely missing from some ROTC programs I can't see much benefit from the rest of the BCT experience. If they are going to go through BCT they might as well also go to OCS and just do the full package. ROTC is a unique experience that aims to create well rounded leaders for our military, similarly but different from the academies, BCT cannot mimic that. Additionally, I believe the BCT exempts them from the first two years of ROTC which I would argue are two of the most formative to creating an officer who it's not only a leader, the goals of years three and four, but also a good follower.
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I attended ROTC basic camp which is a 6 week booked down BCT with more emphasis on leadership. I thought it was very helpful but IOBC and ranger school were what taught me how to be a good LT. I think all of ROTC is just designed to make sure you have the potential to serve as an officer , not to teach you how to be one.
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COL (Join to see)
Interesting comment that "ROTC is just designed to make sure you have the potential to serve as an officer , not to teach you how to be one." I agree somewhat but ROTC, West Point and OCS all end with a commission as a 2LT. My daughter is a yearling at West Point and I now have a much better appreciation for all that West Point provides. That being said I was ROTC and have always believed that it's about the officer, not the source of the commission.
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I have a feeling they will be doing away with CIET soon. They're already pushing for all Cadets who don't go through the first two years of ROTC to attend BCT. They're also gearing ROTC Cadets towards service in the Guard/Reserve.
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COL (Join to see)
Sir, I have heard the same thing and believe it will only enhance the ROTC experience. I am wondering how they intend to pay for it in the fiscally constrained environment in which we currently serve.
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COL Jon Thompson
COL (Join to see) I thought the same thing about cost, especially since they want to expand CIET to all contracted MSI cadets to go after their freshman year and possibly MSII cadets going after their sophomore year. When I went to the ROO course last year, I asked the CC G2 that question. He said that by moving all Cadet Summer Training to Fort Knox, they are saving money from not having to fly cadets and staff to Fort Lewis. He is an ORSA so who am I to argue.
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LTC (Join to see)
They may save money having all Cadet training at Knox, but they've also lost training value due to the summer heat index and frequent lightning storms.
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