Posted on Apr 27, 2016
Soldier failed the APFT but then passed within 90 days but at the time they passed had obtained a temp profile excluding the cardio event?
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So the issue is the soldier was obviously flagged for failing the initial APFT. He then obtained a temp profile for severe leg pain. He took another APFT within the 90 day window and passed, although he was excluded from taking any type of cardio event. His command is still stating that the flag is in effect, but everything I can find in AR 350-1 Appendix G, G-9, sections 6-9, state that is he passes the events he took then the flag should be lifted. And it was command approved for him to follow the profile and not take any of the cardio events
APFT
Failure
Profiles
Re-enlistment
Edited >1 y ago
Posted >1 y ago
Responses: 8
Normally SM with temp profile are not given a record APFT
"A-38. Alternate aerobic events assess the cardio respiratory and muscular endurance of Soldiers with permanent medical profiles, or long-term temporary profiles that cannot perform the 2-mile run"
and "A-41. Soldiers with temporary physical profiles must take a regular three event APFT after the profile has expired. Soldiers with temporary profiles of long duration (more than three months) may take an alternate aerobic event as determined by the commander with input from health-care personnel. Once the profile has been lifted, the Soldier must be given twice the length of the profile (not to exceed 90 days) to train for the regular three event APFT. If a regularly scheduled APFT occurs during the profile period, the Soldier should be given a mandatory make-up date for the APFT."
There are always exceptions, APFT score needed for an evaluation report coming due. APFT score needed for a school, said school will except a alternate APFT score
"A-38. Alternate aerobic events assess the cardio respiratory and muscular endurance of Soldiers with permanent medical profiles, or long-term temporary profiles that cannot perform the 2-mile run"
and "A-41. Soldiers with temporary physical profiles must take a regular three event APFT after the profile has expired. Soldiers with temporary profiles of long duration (more than three months) may take an alternate aerobic event as determined by the commander with input from health-care personnel. Once the profile has been lifted, the Soldier must be given twice the length of the profile (not to exceed 90 days) to train for the regular three event APFT. If a regularly scheduled APFT occurs during the profile period, the Soldier should be given a mandatory make-up date for the APFT."
There are always exceptions, APFT score needed for an evaluation report coming due. APFT score needed for a school, said school will except a alternate APFT score
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SSG (Join to see)
Thanks SGM, seems to have answered the question.
So the soldier is not exempt from the flag until he is able to take a full 3 event APFT once the profile has expired.
So the soldier is not exempt from the flag until he is able to take a full 3 event APFT once the profile has expired.
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Pretty slick move by the Soldier, but the flag will stand since the
profile was temporary, not long term or permanent.
Real question is: Who permitted a record APFT without the cardio event based on a temporary profile?
profile was temporary, not long term or permanent.
Real question is: Who permitted a record APFT without the cardio event based on a temporary profile?
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The commander ultimately decides what is a diagnostic and a record. If you go thru all the regs they will actually start to contradict themselves on this issue as you have an AR, TC, and an FM. There is a provision used for people on long-term temporary profiles where they could be allowed to take a record AFPT. I know personally I would never allow this as if it was truly a long-term temporary profile at the 365 day mark the provider needs to convert to a P3. I would also contend that the only way to overcome the flag is to pass the entire APFT and not a partial. Under ordinary events you don't even have people on temporary profiles take any portion of the APFT, but a commander could have them take some events for diagnostic purposes.
So maybe the CO CDR blessed it and the S-1 and BN CDR shut him down. Rare for his boss to overrule him, but possible. Most likely what occurred is a more junior leader gave the OK, but when the CDR heard about it he said no. Once you open Pandora's box to allow for someone take a record APFT missing an event you can't shut it. This would be ludicrous as people would seek out temporary profiles for the event they failed.
The Soldier needs to get themselves healthy and overcome the flag by taking a full APFT. If not they better hope those profiles turn into a permanent with a medical separation as the other option is to bar them from re-enlisting and separate them that way.
So maybe the CO CDR blessed it and the S-1 and BN CDR shut him down. Rare for his boss to overrule him, but possible. Most likely what occurred is a more junior leader gave the OK, but when the CDR heard about it he said no. Once you open Pandora's box to allow for someone take a record APFT missing an event you can't shut it. This would be ludicrous as people would seek out temporary profiles for the event they failed.
The Soldier needs to get themselves healthy and overcome the flag by taking a full APFT. If not they better hope those profiles turn into a permanent with a medical separation as the other option is to bar them from re-enlisting and separate them that way.
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CPT Mark Gonzalez
ADCON and OPCON is relatively normal based on your branch. Someone has Title X authority over the Soldier and that is the decision maker. If that happens to be the Commandant, than it is the Commandant's decision whether the APFT was a record or not.
If this Soldier was mine I would have told my 1SG to explain to the NCO and Soldier why the APFT didn't count. Further, I would have my 1SG explain to the NCO who makes these types of decisions so this confusion doesn't occur in the future. Just because a grader or NCO says that an APFT is a record at the start, doesn't force the Title X authority to agree. Well intended leaders are out there doing great things every day and as officers we do all that we can to reinforce the support channel. However, it is not 100% and sometimes people overstep and have to be corrected.
If this Soldier was mine I would have told my 1SG to explain to the NCO and Soldier why the APFT didn't count. Further, I would have my 1SG explain to the NCO who makes these types of decisions so this confusion doesn't occur in the future. Just because a grader or NCO says that an APFT is a record at the start, doesn't force the Title X authority to agree. Well intended leaders are out there doing great things every day and as officers we do all that we can to reinforce the support channel. However, it is not 100% and sometimes people overstep and have to be corrected.
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SSG (Join to see)
That seems to be what went on here. The NCOIC of the PT Test allowed him to take the 2 events and stated it as a Record APFT. Then the Training NCOIC said the same thing and that the flag would be lifted. But then the CSM and the LTC repealed that and stated that the SM had to take the full APFT or obtain a P profile.
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CPT Mark Gonzalez
SSG (Join to see) - So you almost need to retype your scenario as the APFT was not command approved. It was the NCO support channel that made a decision and allowed it. However, obviously in this case the commander disagreed. He may have disagreed on his own or at the advice of the CSM.
For the SM it is ok though. They have time to recover, train and pass a full APFT. The subordinate leaders shouldn't take it personally as we are all fallible and sometimes make mistakes. So they learn for the next one and get back to business.
For the SM it is ok though. They have time to recover, train and pass a full APFT. The subordinate leaders shouldn't take it personally as we are all fallible and sometimes make mistakes. So they learn for the next one and get back to business.
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SSG (Join to see)
That's what this seems this has turned out to be, a learning event. That the NCOIC's of the training events and APFTs need to get approval straight from the authorizing official on these special, individual, circumstances.
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I'm facing this very issue now. Failed the apft, ended up back on profile for much of my 90 days, my commander didn't know I couldn't take a record on a temp profile. Now I'm passed that 90 day mark, on a 6 week profile, and have no idea what is going to happen.
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if the sm had a profile at the time he/she should pass the flag should be lifted period
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as you discovered, unless the Temp profile was given for more than 3 months, he was not authorized a alternate event record APFT. The flag would stand. If a separation action was being initiated, Id bet the commander would be advised he should wait till the temp profile and required recovery period was up, give a recorded AFT and then move forward from there.
And there is still some grey area.. .. If the Sm gets a 4 week temp profile, and then a 2 week, and then a 4 week, and then a 1 week, and a 4 week..... was he given a Temp profile for 3 months? Or did he accumulate several shorter profiles that totaled more than 90 days..and are they the same thing as far as APFT is concerned?
And there is still some grey area.. .. If the Sm gets a 4 week temp profile, and then a 2 week, and then a 4 week, and then a 1 week, and a 4 week..... was he given a Temp profile for 3 months? Or did he accumulate several shorter profiles that totaled more than 90 days..and are they the same thing as far as APFT is concerned?
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SSG (Join to see)
SGM,
The time adding up is just one more of those "grey areas". But the SM is currently on the track to be able to take a full APFT in the near future, and has taken the steps to get the issue corrected as soon as possible.
The time adding up is just one more of those "grey areas". But the SM is currently on the track to be able to take a full APFT in the near future, and has taken the steps to get the issue corrected as soon as possible.
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SGM Erik Marquez
SSG (Join to see) - Then the situation is pretty straight forward. Flag remains, no negitive actions taken, temp profile cleared, recovery time given, record APFT done.
The only sticking point is ... was the SM due some schooling? an award? reenlistment or some other favorable action that can not be done while the flag is in place
The only sticking point is ... was the SM due some schooling? an award? reenlistment or some other favorable action that can not be done while the flag is in place
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SSG (Join to see)
SGM,
That is a negative, it was just a standard record APFT, not for any schooling or favorable action.
That is a negative, it was just a standard record APFT, not for any schooling or favorable action.
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So the issue is the soldier was obviously flagged for failing the initial APFT. He then obtained a temp profile for severe leg pain. He took another APFT within the 90 day window and passed, although he was excluded from taking any type of cardio event. His command is still stating that the flag is in effect, but everything I can find in AR 350-1 Appendix G, G-9, sections 6-9, state that is he passes the events he took then the flag should be lifted. And it was command approved for him to follow the profile and not take any of the cardio events.
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Perhaps Im missing the obvious... But can you help us understand what your question is?
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