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To be honest, I agree. Nothing is stolen. Nothing is lost. Valor is a concept, an abstract. It cannot be stolen. It cannot be traded, it cannot be created or destroyed. Pride and respect cannot be taken from you, only you can give it up. What Peter Schmuckatelli does in Ohio in no way can diminish your own internal sense of pride and respect. Intangibles like that are completely ethereal, as strong or as weak as the owner makes them.
Your thoughts?
Your thoughts?
Posted in these groups: 
Stolen Valor
Entitlements
Stolen Valor Entitlements
Posted 11 y ago
Responses: 21
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I will offer this...
The person that goes out and buys a military uniform and some ribbons and tabs is more likely to do something to embarrass me, an actual service member, than a guy who also did some legitimate time in uniform.
I never jumped or went to ranger school. If that makes me a lightweight, then so be it, but I am an honest lightweight, and my service record is legit.
The person that goes out and buys a military uniform and some ribbons and tabs is more likely to do something to embarrass me, an actual service member, than a guy who also did some legitimate time in uniform.
I never jumped or went to ranger school. If that makes me a lightweight, then so be it, but I am an honest lightweight, and my service record is legit.
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SFC Michael Hasbun
Ah, but to be embarrassed is no crime at all.. Heck, seeing Privates walking around Watertown with their pants around their butts embarrasses me, but it's hardly a crime..
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Personally, (just my opinion and no disrespect intended) I believe that if you think valor cannot be stolen, then you may not fully understand the gravity and significance of the sacrifice of those who came before.
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SFC Michael Hasbun
Valor is an abstract, a concept. One can pretend to have it. But it was not stolen from anyone else. If your heart is a valorous one, then no ones acts can diminish it.
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SSgt (Join to see)
You and I have very differing opinions on this, SSG. We'll have to agree to disagree.
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SSgt (Join to see)
The difference between you two is semantics. I am with you on this SSgt (Join to see)
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SSgt (Join to see)
I believe that this valor thing can be a noun and a verb. My uncle who was a pilot and died from cancer in 1967. He got an Air Force Distinguished Flying Cross and 11 Air Medals. He fought and flew in WWII, Korea and Vietnam. Is he a hero? And against what standard? Was he valorous and does our service matter? When people get recognition for extreme sacrifice then the acts are valorous but the person could be a curmudgeon. lol
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The issue isn't that they are putting on a uniform or medals. They are often using that false persona for personal gain. That is the definition of fraud.
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For someone to claim they completed valorous and/or heroic deeds without doing so is a dang coward and its an act of cowardice and those cowards ought to be called out!
Valor is an act of courage not an act of cowardice and when our services members (military and law enforcement) are recognized for it, it is typically recognizable by an award or honor given to that hero (or their survivors) for the valorous/heroic deeds of said hero.
Valor is an act of courage not an act of cowardice and when our services members (military and law enforcement) are recognized for it, it is typically recognizable by an award or honor given to that hero (or their survivors) for the valorous/heroic deeds of said hero.
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CSM Michael J. Uhlig
Cowardice is not a crime SFC Michael Hasbun however, passing themselves off as a valorous hero sure is. I have no problems calling out the posers and cowards that are trying to feel better about themselves when most don't have the dang personal courage to even attempt to join the ranks! I support the groups that continue to call out these cowards, these losers!
http://www.military.com/daily-news/2013/06/03/obama-signs-new-stolen-valor-act.html
http://www.military.com/daily-news/2013/06/03/obama-signs-new-stolen-valor-act.html
Obama Signs New Stolen Valor Act
President Obama on Monday signed into law the latest version of the Stolen Valor Act.
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SFC Michael Hasbun
Agreed, because of that legislation, it's a crime. I'm just not convinced it should be... I worry that it seems to feed the collective sense of self entitlement that seems to pervade the post 911 military..
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CSM Michael J. Uhlig
To me it is very personal. I take the imposters personally, especially when I consider the Soldiers and Marines that I had the privilege to fight alongside and that paid the ultimate sacrifice, so for me it is very personal.
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SPC(P) Jay Heenan
To add to CSM Michael J. Uhlig comment, those claiming things not earned is taking away services my brothers and sisters should be getting...that is the 'crime' in my book. I encourage those to continue to call out (legally) and embarrass those who claim schools, medals or whatever!
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The way I look at it there are differences. Wearing unauthorized uniform is not always steeling valor, it is impersonation. Wearing medals or devices for valor on or off a uniform to include tattoos of them, is steeling valor.
I don't like impersonators regardless if they are steeling valor or not. Their actions reflect poorly on the services as a whole. When they brag about their 6 fantasy tours in Iraq/Afghanistan and their 200 confirmed kills, it makes us look like we are a bunch of madmen. They can potentially harm future vets, because civilians will think that we are all a bunch of crazy nut cases, too unstable to act appropriately in a job. This could have future employment consequences to veterans.
Now on the same token, service members getting into physical confrontations on the subject do the same thing. The video of the guys slapping the kid outside the bar does not impress me. Those actions validate that we are a bunch of loose cannons. If people are going to confront someone on the subject, doing it in a rational manner is the best course of action.
Average joe blow sees that video and might think everyone in a uniform behaves that way. Both steeling valor and the poor confrontations are not the image I want people portraying my service.
I don't like impersonators regardless if they are steeling valor or not. Their actions reflect poorly on the services as a whole. When they brag about their 6 fantasy tours in Iraq/Afghanistan and their 200 confirmed kills, it makes us look like we are a bunch of madmen. They can potentially harm future vets, because civilians will think that we are all a bunch of crazy nut cases, too unstable to act appropriately in a job. This could have future employment consequences to veterans.
Now on the same token, service members getting into physical confrontations on the subject do the same thing. The video of the guys slapping the kid outside the bar does not impress me. Those actions validate that we are a bunch of loose cannons. If people are going to confront someone on the subject, doing it in a rational manner is the best course of action.
Average joe blow sees that video and might think everyone in a uniform behaves that way. Both steeling valor and the poor confrontations are not the image I want people portraying my service.
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SFC Michael Hasbun
Oh don't get me wrong sir, it annoys me to no end, as I'm sure it does the bulk of us. I just don't feel it's criminal, unless fraud is involved. I generally refer to the old "imitation is the sincerest form of flattery" chestnut...
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Lt Col (Join to see)
I agree to a certain extent. I think if the intent is to impersonate should illegal. Like everything in a just system the punishment should fit the crime. at a minimum they ought to have the uniform confiscated and given a small penalty for it, like a fine. I suppose it is a slippery slope.
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PO3 Matthew Girard
You might have missed the part where the kid getting slapped challenged a legit service member to a fight and wouldn't let it go. The two talking to him outside were friends of the person still inside the bar. He was already cruising for a fight and the other guys outside were already tense. I understand that you shouldn't just pop off when someone ices the cake with a fabricated service history but the dude is obviously hurting in the common sense department. If I knew that a physical altercation was probable no matter what, I might be inclined or susceptible to poor choices when further offended by this dudes false bravado as well as pathetically false claims to being a badass. I don't know, it's hard to judge for me.
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PFC (Join to see)
For myself it was the emotional looks in the eyes of my family and friends, and those from my neighborhood (both coming from wildly different places yet still appearing the same) who still stayed behind to have miller time start earlier every week, who never gave up "hope" that is was their haircuts and drinking habits that made them who they were. I felt not a tinge of elitism, but a ton of success. It was in their eyes, I had succeeded, and had potential, willpower and support to continue. I feel some impersonators seek the same pride and full heart I was given through service.
I place alot of stock in symbols, and maybe I can be faulted for that, but these symbols we wear arent just markers of valor, or courage, or even suffering. They are small cloth and metal colored versions of who we are, what we've done and were we've been. The stories we've made will always be told, we are the American Military, the greatest of all time. I would hit myself before I hit an impostor, whether he was "begging" for it or not. That being said, I do tend to over-REACT, and not appropriately ACT when in the face of something like this. Everything I said is separate from FRAUD, as the SSG Hasbun stated, we already have working laws in effect to cover financial gain/ standing to gain through false means.
I place alot of stock in symbols, and maybe I can be faulted for that, but these symbols we wear arent just markers of valor, or courage, or even suffering. They are small cloth and metal colored versions of who we are, what we've done and were we've been. The stories we've made will always be told, we are the American Military, the greatest of all time. I would hit myself before I hit an impostor, whether he was "begging" for it or not. That being said, I do tend to over-REACT, and not appropriately ACT when in the face of something like this. Everything I said is separate from FRAUD, as the SSG Hasbun stated, we already have working laws in effect to cover financial gain/ standing to gain through false means.
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Yes it matters...
On several levels , and not at all on some as well.
One, there is the public perception that the stolen valor schmuck presents.. ,,, if it is, for lack of a better term "good" or not embarrassing to the service he falsely represents, then no big deal,,,they are still a schmuck, but no real damage is done.
If they are committing illegal acts or otherwise appearing to be a dishonorable service member in public, and the public perceives them to be a service member, then the schmuck has done damage and should be held accountable
Then there is, Stolen valor schmuck who fraudulently takes service or something of value.. ..or otherwise profits or has an advantage by falsely presenting himself .. A: They have taken advantage of the giver, and that likely will affect their willingness to trust and offer again later,, thus denying a real service member from that opportunity. B: even if the fraudulently action is not realized by the generous giver... it still is a "something" no longer available to a real servicemember .. this, is in fact a real theft.
On several levels , and not at all on some as well.
One, there is the public perception that the stolen valor schmuck presents.. ,,, if it is, for lack of a better term "good" or not embarrassing to the service he falsely represents, then no big deal,,,they are still a schmuck, but no real damage is done.
If they are committing illegal acts or otherwise appearing to be a dishonorable service member in public, and the public perceives them to be a service member, then the schmuck has done damage and should be held accountable
Then there is, Stolen valor schmuck who fraudulently takes service or something of value.. ..or otherwise profits or has an advantage by falsely presenting himself .. A: They have taken advantage of the giver, and that likely will affect their willingness to trust and offer again later,, thus denying a real service member from that opportunity. B: even if the fraudulently action is not realized by the generous giver... it still is a "something" no longer available to a real servicemember .. this, is in fact a real theft.
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I do believe that a majority of the Stolen Valor cases are mental health related and people looking for recognition for something they haven't accomplished. Much like the "Red Badge of Courage".
For those that are using the uniform for financial gain and/or political favor...they need to be publicly called out and prosecuted to the highest extent.
For those that are using the uniform for financial gain and/or political favor...they need to be publicly called out and prosecuted to the highest extent.
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SFC Michael Hasbun
To me, the financial gain part is covered under fraud. I don't think it really needs further qualifiers..
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Stolen Valor is necessary for all the people who try to gain benefits from looking like a bag of moldy bagels.
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SSG (Join to see) started a similar thread a while back. Yes I think service members get way too wound up about it. If you need proof check his thread out.
https://www.rallypoint.com/answers/stolen-valor-one-soldier-s-opinion
https://www.rallypoint.com/answers/stolen-valor-one-soldier-s-opinion
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What is gained is usually money by these individuals. They say they are doing for the suicides and to bring awareness or people are homeless but are not doing anything at all. Then there are those who go through their various and difficult courses and some rube playing soldier who couldn't tell the difference between a medal of honor and a PME ribbon. So, this is a big deal and just like impersonating any other profession, doctor, nurse, ATC or anything is else, is just wrong.
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