Posted on Nov 13, 2014
Student sues because of ROTC scholarship and religion denial
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http://www.huffingtonpost.com/iknoor-singh/sikh-army-rotc_b_6147686.html
Original post was merged and deleted; looking for your feedback and input concerning suing because you dont get your way. Seems like there is more to this story then what is being reported on.
Original post was merged and deleted; looking for your feedback and input concerning suing because you dont get your way. Seems like there is more to this story then what is being reported on.
Posted >1 y ago
Responses: 19
Your original post was rightly merged and deleted. This is a tired discussion. Everyone is in their corners, unwilling to move. The fact of the matter is that exceptions are being made for appearance on religious grounds.
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CW4 (Join to see)
that looks like the original post that was merged with other posts. There were similarities, but there were also some large disparages between the news article asking for input.
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LTC (Join to see)
CW4 (Join to see), perhaps I jumped the gun. I have no objection to hearing "open and defensible" positions. What is your's?
Without presuming what your position is, I will also say that RP is "a means to share open ideas, bring up good discussions, provide insight and knowledge." Consistent with military values, I believe it is not a place for bigotry. While recognizing that standards do change, frequently, RP is still a place where we can debate the current standards. With respect to Sikhs in Service, the standard is simple: their grooming standards are accommodated.
After researching this prospective ROTC Cadet's story, the facts seem straightforward. If he would have been offered an ROTC scholarship but for his religious appearance standards, then he should be given the ROTC scholarship. It seems that the only reason his scholarship was withheld was because of his appearance. So, the ROTC department was in the wrong. A lawsuit seems in order. Denial of civil rights is not merely "unfair," it is unconstitutional.
Without presuming what your position is, I will also say that RP is "a means to share open ideas, bring up good discussions, provide insight and knowledge." Consistent with military values, I believe it is not a place for bigotry. While recognizing that standards do change, frequently, RP is still a place where we can debate the current standards. With respect to Sikhs in Service, the standard is simple: their grooming standards are accommodated.
After researching this prospective ROTC Cadet's story, the facts seem straightforward. If he would have been offered an ROTC scholarship but for his religious appearance standards, then he should be given the ROTC scholarship. It seems that the only reason his scholarship was withheld was because of his appearance. So, the ROTC department was in the wrong. A lawsuit seems in order. Denial of civil rights is not merely "unfair," it is unconstitutional.
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CW4 (Join to see)
I agree, the ROTC department made a mistake. I am all for individual freedom of religion and all its adornments. His method of going about the whole matter is what gets me. Granted, this was a huffington post article; I did as well look at other news sources that reported on this. The base underline I got from them was this: He was denied because he refused to adhere to grooming standards on religious merit. His waiver was denied for unspecified reasons. He tried to go through a recruiter, same outcome.
When I was a recruiter, issues like this and others (lautenberg act violations, medical issues) had to go to the station commander who them forwarded them onto the recruiting BN, then BDE then onto the CG of USAREC. Not sure of how the ROTC scholarships and waivers go, but I surmise it is a similar avenue.
I have seen people get waivers when joining because they had a needed skill-set the army was lacking while someone else with the same waiver gets denied because they were wanting to do a job that was not a critical shortage. Unless the ROTC waiver was denied solely on religious grounds, I would be hard pressed to file this under civil rights violations or unconstitutional.
When I was a recruiter, issues like this and others (lautenberg act violations, medical issues) had to go to the station commander who them forwarded them onto the recruiting BN, then BDE then onto the CG of USAREC. Not sure of how the ROTC scholarships and waivers go, but I surmise it is a similar avenue.
I have seen people get waivers when joining because they had a needed skill-set the army was lacking while someone else with the same waiver gets denied because they were wanting to do a job that was not a critical shortage. Unless the ROTC waiver was denied solely on religious grounds, I would be hard pressed to file this under civil rights violations or unconstitutional.
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LTC (Join to see)
As far as I know, only nurses go into ROTC for a job-specific scholarship. If he was denied for reasons other than religious accommodation, then he shouldn't have a case. Whatever the stated reasons for his denial, the train left the station. Maybe the department had reasons other than appearance to deny him, but if the only stated reason was "beard and turban," then there is no do-over. The ROTC department should, and probably will, lose.
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This individual has been misinformed by his ROTC recruiters. Several Sikh's served and are serving in the Army while keeping to their faith.
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"It is the Sikh's sacred duty, without fear or anger, to defend the weak, to protect the innocent." Who wouldn't want a person with that kind of warrior spirit? The U.S. military has made provision for people in the past, consientious objectors that had gone on to recieve the Medal of Honor for acts of heroism, why not here? The grooming standards are arbitrary, women are allowed to have long hair while in the field, there goes your health an sanitation argument. Generals Robert E. Lee, Ulysses S. Grant, Thomas "Stonewall" Jackson, etc. had beards, would you label them as un-proffesional? Finally, look up Colonel Gopal Singh Khalsa (USA), I dare MAJ Robert Petrarca to tell him, "GO AWAY," to his face, let us know how you do!
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Show this dude videos of soldiers taking rounds in their helmet and surviving and then ask him how he plans to wear a helmet with that mop on his head.
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You have to choose. Ask your religious leader about it, get your answer,make a choice then follow through. Or chuck the whole idea and go to college.
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I said it once, I'll say it again, the STANDARDS are the STANDARDS! You want to serve, adhere to the standards. I think we can all agree that you have very little freedoms while serving. You fight for the freedom of speech but you know that you can't fully exercise that right while in the uniform for whatever reasons. I'm sure there are other people in other faiths, like let's just say an Amish man who would love to serve but don't because the STANDARDS of their faith and the STANDARDS of the military do not mix well.
This guy is just trying to make something out of nothing. Those of that served have all given up something in order to serve. Sure, giving up your faith is a HUGE step and shouldn't be taken lightly but if that is what is needed to join would you do it? It's a hard call but not worth all the press with other more important things hitting the military and veteran population.
This guy is just trying to make something out of nothing. Those of that served have all given up something in order to serve. Sure, giving up your faith is a HUGE step and shouldn't be taken lightly but if that is what is needed to join would you do it? It's a hard call but not worth all the press with other more important things hitting the military and veteran population.
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CW4 (Join to see)
When I was recruiter (many years ago), you couldnt join if you had citizenship in another country. You had to renounce your foreign citizenship through your consulate, provide documentation that it was completed and you had applied for US citizenship before I could proceed. I had a few applicants do this, some did/would not do this. Again, minimum standard needs to be met.
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If you cannot comply with the standards that are currently placed before you, support us from the civilian sector. Have a nice day and thank you for your support.
Suing to get your way is not only unpatriotic but is entirely self-serving and shameful.
Suing to get your way is not only unpatriotic but is entirely self-serving and shameful.
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CW4 (Join to see)
I am not saying the unit is not professional. You and I both know how the rumor mill and lack of professionalism is there regardless of what is put in place by command elements. His peers and others might take a prejudicial or flippant tone/attitude with him if things came out about how he got a commission. Some might look at it like he really didnt earn his commission, it was given due to his legal action or something similar. I personally could care less on how he gets a commission; if he can do his job and do it to a high degree of proficiency, it wouldnt matter.
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CW4 (Join to see)
1SG Randall McPherson, there are other ways to get commissioned besides the ROTC program as I am sure you are aware. He might have approached a few different avenues instead of putting all his eggs in one basket. Not sure, the article is not very developed in its research and reporting on all facets of this young mans issues.
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CPO (Join to see)
Maj., you mentioned that if he meets standards then he meets standards, but I think the valid argument here is that by definition, he does not meet them, he wants to change them so he can join.
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CPO (Join to see)
Another point would be, what is keeping every other service member from claiming they are Sikh in order to grow beards?
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