Posted on Nov 8, 2013
Tension between National Guard and Active Duty Army?
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I have served in both capacities and even on active duty while in the Guard. I constantly hear Active Duty gripe about the National Guard, and yet even worse I have also heard National Guard gripe about the National Guard. I am very pound of my unit's achievements in the past and while I have served with them. We have fought and lost great men just like our counterparts in the Active Duty Army. I make sure to crush it where I find it. We didn't get the name of Roosevelt's SS for nothing. We literally shredded the German's 1st SS in WWII and later deployed twice to OIF. <div><br></div><div>How do you approach this situation, whether you're in the National Guard or Regular Army? Or are you guilty of doing this? I was in the past. </div>
Army
Army National Guard
Army Reserve
Edited >1 y ago
Posted 12 y ago
Responses: 202
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I once had a long discussion with another fellow active duty soldier regarding National Guard and Reserve soldiers. His contention was that he looked down on National Guard/Reserve soldiers because they made the choice to only become "part time soldiers." In his eyes, to be a soldier was a full time commitment and to only put one weekend a month into it was just not enough.
As unfair as it sounds, there is some truth to the phrase "weekend warrior." There is a reason why there is a perception that National Guard and Reserve soldiers are inadequate, and that reason mainly boils down to one thing. Time. You cannot expect a National Guard soldier who only has one weekend a month to train to be professionally on the same level as a soldier who trains all month long. I've seen this first hand while deployed with National Guard units. Outside the wire they were practically combat ineffective due to incompetence.
Combine this with the lack of professionalism that we (active duty soldiers) observed and it was not hard to understand where the active duty sentiment comes from.
This post is not meant to demean National Guard or Reserve soldiers, and maybe I've just seen the worst the National Guard has to offer, but I can see why active duty feels superior.
Edit: To clarify on one thing, I'm referring to combat arms soldiers, on both sides of the active duty and national guard/reserve spectrum.
As unfair as it sounds, there is some truth to the phrase "weekend warrior." There is a reason why there is a perception that National Guard and Reserve soldiers are inadequate, and that reason mainly boils down to one thing. Time. You cannot expect a National Guard soldier who only has one weekend a month to train to be professionally on the same level as a soldier who trains all month long. I've seen this first hand while deployed with National Guard units. Outside the wire they were practically combat ineffective due to incompetence.
Combine this with the lack of professionalism that we (active duty soldiers) observed and it was not hard to understand where the active duty sentiment comes from.
This post is not meant to demean National Guard or Reserve soldiers, and maybe I've just seen the worst the National Guard has to offer, but I can see why active duty feels superior.
Edit: To clarify on one thing, I'm referring to combat arms soldiers, on both sides of the active duty and national guard/reserve spectrum.
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SFC (Join to see)
When i was as a part of the National Guard we had way better interaction with the local nationals, I believe its because we bring some thing extra with us... with our real world life experiences, we learn to "throw the book away" when it comes to difficult situations, where active duty learns to do things "by the book" and that's all they know... and yes I, like majority of the guard have active duty time... just remember we train and are held to the same standards as active duty we just do it with a lot less allowable time..Im not saying we are better for it, but we have to meet the same AR 600 as active duty and we have civilian careers that we bring to the table....
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SGT (Join to see)
Sergeant, If you are a civilian nurse and you're a National Guard nurse I can see the civilian experience mattering. What I don't buy is how a civilian career as a business manager reinforces a National Guard infantrymans ability to do his job (just throwing out a random example). They are two completely different beasts.
Also, to say that you learn to "throw the book away" is not something I would be proud of. Statements like that reinforce perceptions of a lack of professionalism within the Guard and Reserves.
A final point. Yes, National Guard train towards the same standard, but that does not mean they achieve the same standard. As I said in my original post I have seen first hand how National Guard units operate in the field. I've worked with them side by side in both Iraq and Afghanistan. I was not impressed with what I saw, since as often as not my unit was being called in to clean up a mess caused by the Guard unit in our AO. Also as I mentioned, maybe I saw the worst the Guard has to offer. Maybe what I saw was out of context, but my experiences have left a bad taste in my mouth that has been hard to wash out.
Also, to say that you learn to "throw the book away" is not something I would be proud of. Statements like that reinforce perceptions of a lack of professionalism within the Guard and Reserves.
A final point. Yes, National Guard train towards the same standard, but that does not mean they achieve the same standard. As I said in my original post I have seen first hand how National Guard units operate in the field. I've worked with them side by side in both Iraq and Afghanistan. I was not impressed with what I saw, since as often as not my unit was being called in to clean up a mess caused by the Guard unit in our AO. Also as I mentioned, maybe I saw the worst the Guard has to offer. Maybe what I saw was out of context, but my experiences have left a bad taste in my mouth that has been hard to wash out.
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GySgt William Hardy
Sgt Kenneth R - You are very wrong and it is uninformed comments like this that make things worse. The Guard and Reserve soldiers have supplemented the active duty side since day one, and especially from WWII to present. Your second paragraph is totally wrong. Yes we can be up-to-date and ready to go. You say that like all we do is go in and sit around all weekend. I posted elsewhere that I spent more time at FT. Campbell training all weekend than I ever did at my home Armory. We worked with active duty soldiers to hone our skills. Just to rub it in a bit more, we beat our counter-parts in simulated war games more often than they beat us. One of the reasons is that our S2/3 staff had all college educated people except for our MSG. The only college people on the active staff were the officers...their NCOIC had some college, but no degree. Education seems to have balanced out experience. I would have gladly have put our staff up against any active duty unit.
I have seen poor units on active duty and in the Guard. Call it as it is. If a unit does poorly, it should get the criticism. Point the finger at the unit, not at the whole Army or National Guard. I take offense at your blanket statement as if all Reserve and National Guard units are bad....you are so wrong. Word gets around and you and your friend my find nobody covering your 6.
Your last comment shows a lack of understanding of the world around you. In my 13 years of active service, I was solely involved in my little corner of the military service and I was rather good at it. After leaving AD and attending college, I joint the National Guard. My military side affected my civilian job and visa verse. If you cannot see how being a business manager can enhance a soldiers ability to lead you are blind. My degree in Social Sciences most definitely helped me be a better soldier as an intel analysts and as an NCO/SNCO.
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SGT (Join to see)
Looks like I've touched a nerve. Also, if I haven't already made this painfully clear by now, I'm talking about combat arms soldiers. Specifically infantry and cav scouts. Now, with this preface out of the way...
GySgt William Hardy, I respectfully disagree. If by "wrong" and "uninformed" you mean my first hand experiences with NG and Reserves, then I don't know what to tell you.
I never said or implied that NG sit around all weekend. My comment was what to me is simple logic. When I was a platoon medic on active duty my platoon was very simple. If they were not at the range, they were preparing for one. If they were doing neither, then they were practicing battle drills out back in the grassy area behind company. If they weren't doing that they were doing some impromptu combatives training. If they weren't doing any of those, they were practicing how to clear a building via a glass house. The point being is that they were ALWAYS training. Every single day, every day of the week, all month long.
Of course there were a few down days for admin purposes or range recovery, but those were relatively few and far between.
Now compare that with a NG infantry platoon. Two days, that's all they have to cram in a months training, admin, and God knows what. You will never convince me that your NG infantry platoon would be on the same level as my active duty infantry platoon. It's simply ridiculous to say that your two days of training equals my month of training.
As for my blanket statement, I say what I say because that is my experience. Am I willing to admit that there are good NG and reserve units out there? Sure. Have I met one? Not so much.
Finally, yes I can see how a business manager background can benefit any soldier with leadership and general admin. The point I was trying to make that apparently went over your head, or you chose to ignore, is that I don't buy how a business manager benefits an infantryman with his battle drills, his weapon proficiency, his physical fitness, or any of the other "infantry" things infantryman do. This comes back to my comments earlier with active having a month to train as opposed to national guards two days. Sure, your business manager might be able to lead, but can he lead by example? He can try to lead all two days he has at his disposal, but what's a good leader if he's not proficient at his warrior tasks and drills?
GySgt William Hardy, I respectfully disagree. If by "wrong" and "uninformed" you mean my first hand experiences with NG and Reserves, then I don't know what to tell you.
I never said or implied that NG sit around all weekend. My comment was what to me is simple logic. When I was a platoon medic on active duty my platoon was very simple. If they were not at the range, they were preparing for one. If they were doing neither, then they were practicing battle drills out back in the grassy area behind company. If they weren't doing that they were doing some impromptu combatives training. If they weren't doing any of those, they were practicing how to clear a building via a glass house. The point being is that they were ALWAYS training. Every single day, every day of the week, all month long.
Of course there were a few down days for admin purposes or range recovery, but those were relatively few and far between.
Now compare that with a NG infantry platoon. Two days, that's all they have to cram in a months training, admin, and God knows what. You will never convince me that your NG infantry platoon would be on the same level as my active duty infantry platoon. It's simply ridiculous to say that your two days of training equals my month of training.
As for my blanket statement, I say what I say because that is my experience. Am I willing to admit that there are good NG and reserve units out there? Sure. Have I met one? Not so much.
Finally, yes I can see how a business manager background can benefit any soldier with leadership and general admin. The point I was trying to make that apparently went over your head, or you chose to ignore, is that I don't buy how a business manager benefits an infantryman with his battle drills, his weapon proficiency, his physical fitness, or any of the other "infantry" things infantryman do. This comes back to my comments earlier with active having a month to train as opposed to national guards two days. Sure, your business manager might be able to lead, but can he lead by example? He can try to lead all two days he has at his disposal, but what's a good leader if he's not proficient at his warrior tasks and drills?
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Sir,
With respect to everyone's opinion, I was in the NCARNG in 1994. I see that you are in Lumberton, NC. I am originally from Wallace, NC. My unit was in Clinton, NC.
When I was in the Guard, "the good ole boy" system was in effect. The tension at that unit was so thick you could slice it with a butter knife. A lot of my friend left the guard for that reason. Some went active others join different branches of service.
The problem with some guard units, in my opinion, is that even though they are weekend warriors. They forget that they volunteered to be warriors. Some of them don’t believe that they are held to the same standard as an AD soldiers.
Especially those that are Senior NCOs and Officers, which i can remember when i was in the Guard.
While on AD, I have not seen an AD warrior give fuse about PT, Weapons qual or field problems.
However, some soldiers were able to get out of a weekend drill or 2 week annual training.
Needless to say, as long as some warriors believe that they don’t have to adhere to the Army Standards then there will always be tension among AD, Reserve and Guard.
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SFC (Join to see)
SFC Johnson, I agree it the leadership responsibility to break it up. However, when the leadership is "toxic" and is the problem. For my career's sake and lively hood, it was better to leave then stick around.
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SFC Dennis Lautenbach
I would like to point out that you stated that you were in the Guard back in 94. Times have changed and so has the Army National Guard. I joined the Guard in Jan of 1988 and I went Active Duty Army in Nov of 89. I left active duty in 95. I joined the guard after an eight year break in service. The Guard today is 100% different than it was then.
Part of the problem is younger Soldiers learn from your older Soldiers. We all did. SSG Brice you called the Guard "Weekend Warriors". We are Soldiers period plain and simple. AD AR or NG! Your subordinate Soldiers look to you for opinions that have yet to form due to lack of experience. They hear you say "weekend warrior" and they too believe that the RC/NG are lesser Soldiers. We bleed and die just like our fellow Americans.
Part of the problem is younger Soldiers learn from your older Soldiers. We all did. SSG Brice you called the Guard "Weekend Warriors". We are Soldiers period plain and simple. AD AR or NG! Your subordinate Soldiers look to you for opinions that have yet to form due to lack of experience. They hear you say "weekend warrior" and they too believe that the RC/NG are lesser Soldiers. We bleed and die just like our fellow Americans.
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I believe it is a non-issue. Soldiers are naturally going to trust who they are familiar with. When I was on Active Duty (IN THE LATE 80's!!!) I HATED the National guard guys who came to our Kaserne and took over our shops for 2 weeks!
Sibling rivalry isnt always a bad thing, I have learned from both sides! There are POS, and stellar units in both!
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LTC (Join to see)
I think that it still exists. And will always exist. It starts from the top. If they stop treating them different, and encourage better integration we would see less.
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No worries on the rant. Yes, as AD we expect (during a time of war) to deploy often an have our lives disrupted. It just really irked me that a few of those NG members seemed to want all of the benefits offered through the military but none of the obligations. True, AD families do tend to have more support, but what I wouldn't give to have stability for my family. My husband is still AD so we still face moving every 3 years. This means totally moving houses, disrupting kids, my (now) needing to look for employment again. I also know families whose SM has been home only a few months from one deployment before receiving PCS orders to another deploying unit, or deploying with the same unit again less than one year later. Yes, AD deploys a lot, but those SM deserve home time too.
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SSG Lisa Rendina
OK. I'm done with this. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion. I responded with a single personal experience and everyone wants to jump all over me. People seem to have missed/ignored the portions of my comments where I fully recognize that the majority of NG and Reserve Soldiers are outstanding and that there are hardships involved no matter the component.
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SFC (Join to see)
SSG Rendina,
I hope you didn't feel attacked by my reply. That was not my intended purpose. We service men, women, and family members all serve this great nation in our own ways.
I simply wanted to provide you with some information I did not know about the Guard and Reserve when I was an Active Duty Soldier. My thought was it may help you see a side of the reserve force you may not have been aware of previously.
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SSG Lisa Rendina
SFC W,
You provided some great information, some of which I was not aware of, thank you for that. There have been a few other comments that have felt like personal attacks and seemed to have missed certain portions of my comments.
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SSG Mike Angelo
I live in Minnesota, and its just one of those States that is heavy on National Guard and Reserve Units. Ft. Snelling was built in the early 1820s and houses a small active component. The State beefed up and modernized major facilities. the Red Bulls come from Rosemount, MN. Has anyone served with this unit?
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In training you really didn't know who was in what. There were Guards, Reservists, Draftees and Regular Army. I ended up in Fort Sam Houston and the Guard had their Summer Camp while I was there. The thing I remember most was even the First Sargent had no problem pushing the broom, and guess who was a member of the Texas Guard, Audie Murphy.
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13 years AD, 23 years an ART( air reserve technician). I started at a combination on AD. We had active, reserve and civil service along with ARTS. There was always teasing, but we all worked together pretty well. I deployed to Qatar a few years ago with reserves. Probably half that deployed in the beginning were ARTS. The AD people thought all reserve were only 2 days a month and the 2 weeks. We actually all got yelled at for being too nice to their airmen. They said they weren't showing us respect. The ones doing the lecture were e-6, most of us were e-7s and above. One senior stopped them and said "none of your airmen have shown me any disrespect, what are you talking about". It was ended and we all laughed about it. I didn't know treating people like people would be bad. If you ask nicely or yell, it's still an order. People just usually respond better to being asked nicely. Most of us had 10-20 years more experience than the AD. What I can tell you is the AD pilots were always trying to fly our planes.
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The guard spent as much time deployed and suffered the loss of so many. To compare or complain is like firefighters from different stations putting out the same fire, they need each other. Waste of time.
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There's only one thing I don't like about the National Guard = CPT (Join to see) !!!
Other than that, they're great in my book! ;-)
Other than that, they're great in my book! ;-)
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CPT (Join to see)
I know. I'm wouldn't like a guard guy like him either if me made look bad. It's OK. Some people just age better.
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MAJ (Join to see)
Like a fine scotch.
I must say, we certainly represented the "Over 30" club pretty well considering there were only 5 of us out of 188.
I must say, we certainly represented the "Over 30" club pretty well considering there were only 5 of us out of 188.
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MAJ (Join to see)
CPT (Join to see) - Speaking of scotch - - "if me made look bad" - - are you drunk?
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It's more of a playful thing most of the time. When it's not, it's because of abject stupidity on the part of the person projecting it.
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