Posted on Nov 26, 2016
To what extent does one tolerate divisive rhetoric and dissension within the ranks?
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I have already asked my NCOs to discuss the ramifications of divisive rhetoric and criticism of our incoming CiC. However, some Soldiers feel the need to rebel. When do comments become grounds for separation?
Posted 9 y ago
Responses: 62
It is the same stuff we have see. For the last 8 years. Nothing different. So why is it an issue now?
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1LT Tom Wilson
CW2 (Join to see) - I don't know what your specific situation is, Mr. Sweesy, so i am speaking out of turn. But, among other things, if this wasn't a problem for you in the last 8 years, you either weren't privy to similar attitudes about Obama or chose to ignore them. My estimate from far outside the loop is that these expressed attitudes are nothing more than people letting off steam which will pass.
My personal standards were focused on unit performance. The polarization that this current season reveals is a deliberate political strategy to achieve exactly what you are seeing, but is has been going on, propelled by political operatives i associate with the Conservative movement, for 30 years and there is little more to it than that. I let a lot of stuff slide because it wasn't important. One benefit was that I personally and single handedly defused a racial situation because the Black troops involved trusted me in the moment and let it slide.
That pretty well satisfied my standards.
My personal standards were focused on unit performance. The polarization that this current season reveals is a deliberate political strategy to achieve exactly what you are seeing, but is has been going on, propelled by political operatives i associate with the Conservative movement, for 30 years and there is little more to it than that. I let a lot of stuff slide because it wasn't important. One benefit was that I personally and single handedly defused a racial situation because the Black troops involved trusted me in the moment and let it slide.
That pretty well satisfied my standards.
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MSG Cordell Jay Johnson
1LT Tom Wilson - Tom I agree. This too shall pass. Focus should be placed on unit cohesion outside of the political realm.
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CW2 (Join to see)
1LT Tom Wilson - As you stated, you've been out of the loop for awhile. I've seen and been privy to many things but badmouthing our CiC was not one of them. No need to make this a racial issue unless you see it as a problem. People are so quick to go there. It does not affect me any so
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1LT Tom Wilson
I didn't mean to make a connection between Obama and this particular incident in Vietnam, but if you fail to make the racial connection between Obama and the Conservative agenda for the last 8 years, you've been obtuse.
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I served under Presidents Reagan, Bush, Clinton and Bush II. There was always discussion, but Leadership should at every level provide guidance to those serving about the proper way to express political speech. The blanket policy that I experienced was "not at work, not at military functions and never in uniform" should politics be discussed. If you have an issue with the COMINCH, keep it to yourself and let your voice be heard when you vote.
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2 things come to mind.
1) Ask them "Were you drafted or did you volunteer?" That should start a thought process leading them back to being a professional.
2) Repeat something I said often "We protect freedom son, we don't practice it"
1) Ask them "Were you drafted or did you volunteer?" That should start a thought process leading them back to being a professional.
2) Repeat something I said often "We protect freedom son, we don't practice it"
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The template for this is that we are now just finishing up the Obama Administration. We ALL know that a certain percentage of us were not keen on that without belaborment. Public declarations of disrespect ("divisive rhetoric and criticism") should be greeted with counseling statements, both verbal and written as you progress. What makes one Soldier happy makes another Marine pissed off so you play it down the middle and do not accept disprespect, as defined above. Approaching th NCOs was very appropriate, assuming you have quality NCOs "who get it". As in life, the rebels may well have to pay a certain price but hopefully, your personal leadership and their supervisors will carry the day.
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Your question answers itself. "Divisive" rhetoric cannot and should not be tolerated. Ever! Obviously because it being "divisive", it has a negative effect upon unit discipline, mission, and cohesiveness. Grounds for separation? Second time, no later.
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Divisive rhetoric and dissension within the ranks is contrary to unit cohesion and military order and discipline and therefore should not be tolerated to ANY extent.
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One thing that we should keep in mind is our oath. It is first to the constitution, then the country, then the people of this country....the Commander in chief is not really on the list for a reason other than to follow lawful orders. One question For the previous 8 years that I have asked former and active military is...."What do we as service members do when the Commander and Chief becomes the Enemy???" Most do not think this is even a possibility. They go into shock when you mention other countries or heads spin when you point out scenarios where the Commander in Chief actually is your domestic enemy. Several have refused to even discuss it. In this case we are not only required by oath to speak out we are required to do something....The question is what??? One person told me that there was procedures where by the military could act to remove a sitting president but gave me little or no details. Something to think about. Here's a thought what about a former president that has used up their two terms but tries to reinsert themselves into power. While these are nightmare scenarios...they are still possible.
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SGT Eric Knutson
PFC Aaron Cox - he is referring to a line in the Bill Murrey John Candy movie STRIPS, but it is a well founded question rooted in history. Every President has done something that was not popular at one point or another. I think he was referring to the question that the Wermarch had to ask themselves in the 30s as well. at what point do you know that the boss has gone off the reservation and it becomes your duty to protect the people of the country, which, in the end is our ultimate responsibility and tasking. In 1945/6 the Nurnburg trials put the "just following orders" defense to rest for all times, in that, we were charged with knowing right from wrong, knowing that there comes a time in which we are obligated to disregard unlawful orders. Now we (the US Military) never really needed to have these spelled out because we are supposed to be free thinkers and know down in our guts right from wrong. And for the most part it has served us pretty well over the years. Not saying that we do not have our failings, but even those are ultimately handled pretty well (Me Lai is the prime example, an understandable if illegal response to the situation that resulted in prison for LT Calley) (apologies if I misspelled the LTs name) a prison sentence that he recently compleated a few years ago.
But again, it is a legitimate question that we are constantly tasked with asking ourselves as leaders within our military, because ultimately and in fact we do have that power, but you need to balance it against the charge of mutiny or sedition if we are wrong which I believe is a top tier Capitol offence with the Death Penalty a very real outcome if one were to fail or be wrong. Also consider that UNpopular and wrong are 2 very different terms that need to be understood, just as popular and right are different. At the beginning the round up of the Jews, Gypsies and homosexuals we VERY popular in Germany, but it was still WRONG, Schindler knew this and did what he could within his control to do the RIGHT thing and save as many as he could, Von Stauffenburg did what he could because it was the morally right thing to do and paid the ultimate price for his beliefs. Even though these men were the "enemy" we still hold them as Hero's because they did the Right thing that was not popular at the time. Now they were during a War of survival and had to take extreme measures, we are (currently) not in a war for survival (and yes it could be debated but it has not been declared) so our choices are much more limited (remember mutiny and sedition). As serving members we have 2 real choices, serve with Honor doing what you know is right, or, if you disagree with the sitting President strongly enough, then leave, finish your tour as enlisted and not reup, or if an Officer, put in your Resignation letter and get out (after serving you mandatory time). We are not conscripted, we are not held against our will with a gun to our families head, we have that choice. But remember, Choice and Freedom are not free, if you take them up, you also have Responsibility that comes as part of both and you cannot escape the consequences of what follows. Remember, all of our good to great leaders have lead from the front. they pick their course and stick with it, taking advice and altering the course when warrented, but they have reached for the GOAL what ever it was that was in front of them.
Just my 2 cents to consider
But again, it is a legitimate question that we are constantly tasked with asking ourselves as leaders within our military, because ultimately and in fact we do have that power, but you need to balance it against the charge of mutiny or sedition if we are wrong which I believe is a top tier Capitol offence with the Death Penalty a very real outcome if one were to fail or be wrong. Also consider that UNpopular and wrong are 2 very different terms that need to be understood, just as popular and right are different. At the beginning the round up of the Jews, Gypsies and homosexuals we VERY popular in Germany, but it was still WRONG, Schindler knew this and did what he could within his control to do the RIGHT thing and save as many as he could, Von Stauffenburg did what he could because it was the morally right thing to do and paid the ultimate price for his beliefs. Even though these men were the "enemy" we still hold them as Hero's because they did the Right thing that was not popular at the time. Now they were during a War of survival and had to take extreme measures, we are (currently) not in a war for survival (and yes it could be debated but it has not been declared) so our choices are much more limited (remember mutiny and sedition). As serving members we have 2 real choices, serve with Honor doing what you know is right, or, if you disagree with the sitting President strongly enough, then leave, finish your tour as enlisted and not reup, or if an Officer, put in your Resignation letter and get out (after serving you mandatory time). We are not conscripted, we are not held against our will with a gun to our families head, we have that choice. But remember, Choice and Freedom are not free, if you take them up, you also have Responsibility that comes as part of both and you cannot escape the consequences of what follows. Remember, all of our good to great leaders have lead from the front. they pick their course and stick with it, taking advice and altering the course when warrented, but they have reached for the GOAL what ever it was that was in front of them.
Just my 2 cents to consider
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Usually, when they try to act on it. However, there have been cases even speaking against the cic would result in separation from the military. Actual rebelling can be considered insurrection, mutiny, disobeying a direct order etc. However the reason of their actions and idea should be considered. If it is just another bunch of liberals talking bs remind them of the a fore mention and its results. You might also remind them of what Hillary did to the Military and US citizens and what her objectives were. She committed actual treason and got away with it. She was wanting to allow Sharia law in the US in direct violation of our constitution and traditions. The list goes on.
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This pretty much says it all: [I, (NAME), do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; and that I will obey the orders of the President of the United States and the orders of the officers appointed over me, according to regulations and the Uniform Code of Military Justice. So help me God.] Anything less is failure to obey orders at the least, and insubordination at the worst. You may have your preference as to who you would like to see elected into office, but once it's a done deal, your duty is clear. Failure to perform your duties as a member of the US Armed Forces are well defined in the UCMJ. Remind your people their job is to protect their country, and everyone in it; not just a select few. Back when I first came in, (1970), this would NEVER have been an issue, and quite honestly, can't wrap my head around why it's an issue now. Of course, back then, your Drill Instructor could get nose to nose with you, and yell his head off, or make you do push ups, or low crawls without worrying about the trainee holding up a damn "time out" card so that the DS couldn't whip him into shape. It was understood that the military wasn't a day care, or summer camp, and you had better man up, or you would be sent home during the initial training period. And then, the new recruit was told that any opinions he might have about anything didn't make one damn bit of difference any longer. I can't remember the number of times when I was told while I was still a junior enlisted man "YOU AREN"T PAID TO THINK, YOU'RE PAID TO DO AS YOU'RE TOLD AND FOLLOW ORDERS!" I can't for the life of me understand why this it is so different in today's military.
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