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Over the weekend at a training conference an NCO giving a class on standards and discipline asked the group to stand up. He then asked for everyone to sit down whose back pockets were buttoned. I was not one of the NCO's who sat as I always keep my left rear pocket unbuttoned and tucked in as this is where my wallet is at. He then attributed this as a lack of discipline.
The new AR 670-1 specifically states in Chapter 3 a.(3) that, "Soldiers will keep uniforms buttoned, zipped, and snapped."
Now, obviously this is pretty broad as my ACU's were certainly zipped, and looked professional, but technically were not completely 'buttoned'.
Do you fellow NCO's agree that the failing to button even the rear pockets on the trousers actually demonstrates a lack of discipline? If so, do you then inspect all of your troops to ensure that they are complying with this standard? Are all their buttons in the fly area of the ACU buttoned for example? Are yours? When you wear your ASU's do you button the inside button on the trousers?
I'm not fielding this question to complain about being called out... but instead to see what your thoughts are on the discipline thing.
The new AR 670-1 specifically states in Chapter 3 a.(3) that, "Soldiers will keep uniforms buttoned, zipped, and snapped."
Now, obviously this is pretty broad as my ACU's were certainly zipped, and looked professional, but technically were not completely 'buttoned'.
Do you fellow NCO's agree that the failing to button even the rear pockets on the trousers actually demonstrates a lack of discipline? If so, do you then inspect all of your troops to ensure that they are complying with this standard? Are all their buttons in the fly area of the ACU buttoned for example? Are yours? When you wear your ASU's do you button the inside button on the trousers?
I'm not fielding this question to complain about being called out... but instead to see what your thoughts are on the discipline thing.
Uniforms
NCOs
Edited >1 y ago
Posted >1 y ago
Responses: 86
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AR 670-1 clearly states that Soldiers will keep their uniforms buttoned, zipped, and snapped....so I don't see why people make the excuse on why their back pockets aren't buttoned. If you're putting your wallet back there, you need to button it up. If it don't fit either buy a smaller wallet or move you wallet to another pocket. And yes, I do make sure that all of my troops have their buttons buttoned, their snaps snapped, and their zippers zipped and mine stay that way as well. Contrary to popular belief the regulations aren't guides that we can manipulate for our own personal gain, the regs are the law.
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I wouldn't go as far as ate up soup sandwich, but there are uniform requirements. They need to be followed, if not for regulation, there are some safety issues the can be involved.
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Lt Col (Join to see)
What, pray tell, is the safety issue with having your rear pocket unbuttoned? Am I at some kind of risk I'm unaware of when I wear jeans off-duty?
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Lt Col (Join to see)
Joey Damir - If you're at risk of catching the pocket flap on something, you're probably wearing the blouse incorrectly.
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I remember when I told not to put anything in the pockets in garrison unless it was the back pockets on the pants and the front pock on the pants. I also remember if you were caught with an unbuttoned pocket, you were placed on 1SG's list.
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I don't know, if have to say that it depends on the time and place, my pockets were always buttoned, for fear of losing my wallet while playing in up they see me I'm down... but I think realistically, if you are in the rear, you ought to be squared away, however, if you're in the field or deployed however, tactical proficiency ranks higher than professional wearing of the uniform,
Example- if you are on a combat patrol, and you have more mags than pouches, I could give two shits whether or not your cargo pockets are velcroed or not, if you need to put extra ammo in your pockets, to hell with regs.
-guess that's just the opinion of a grunt tho.
Example- if you are on a combat patrol, and you have more mags than pouches, I could give two shits whether or not your cargo pockets are velcroed or not, if you need to put extra ammo in your pockets, to hell with regs.
-guess that's just the opinion of a grunt tho.
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Since the regulation states they should be buttoned I inspect them and do my best to keep mine buttoned at all times. However, if I find them unbuttoned I do not rip the kid's head off over it as I do not necessarily see it as a lack of discipline so much as a memory problem. One that I happen to share from time to time.
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Having gone through BCT with a drill sergeant coming at me with a knife to my trouser pocket and asking "do you want to keep this pocket or not?" Because it was still open from removing my PC he taught me a valuable lesson about professionalism, not that his method is the best but to always be as though you're going for inspection and be square away.
I'm glad SSG Bryant stated it for us about integrity, to always do the right thing even when no one is looking. Some how soldiers seems to feel that because of a deployment here or there or being of a higher rank that rules don't apply to them and they are excluded because of rank or deployment. Not the button being fasten topic specifically but still try to correct a superior on a violation so simple and they may take a defiant stance. Noted through observation in my 9 years, not that every NCO or Officer has done this. Just a good portion.
I'm glad SSG Bryant stated it for us about integrity, to always do the right thing even when no one is looking. Some how soldiers seems to feel that because of a deployment here or there or being of a higher rank that rules don't apply to them and they are excluded because of rank or deployment. Not the button being fasten topic specifically but still try to correct a superior on a violation so simple and they may take a defiant stance. Noted through observation in my 9 years, not that every NCO or Officer has done this. Just a good portion.
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Ever since OSUT, I have always buttoned my uniform since it was drilled in my head back then. Occasionally I see unbuttoned back pockets where the wallet is stored by the soldier.
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It's not a huge infraction, but it warrants a friendly correction. If I were to receive such a correction, I would make it and thank the corrector.
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I don't know why anyone puts stuff in back pocket lol, it's uncomfortable. But there's a lot of stuff I don't agree about the regulations, like not being able to have hands in pockets. But rules are rules.
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I wouldn't call it a lack of discipline, however, it is lacking in attention to detail. (I actually was unsure about mine, but somehow, they were all buttoned, pat on the back for me). I understand that you keep your wallet there, but technically, rules are rules. Honestly, I never really look to see if someone has them buttoned or not, not trying to be in violation of SHARP and all. I do possibly regard someone a bit higher, however, if they do take that extra step to ensure it is done. Mine was a stroke of luck, though I will button it if I notice it is unbuttoned, but the fact that mine were buttoned (today) and yours wasn't does not make me more disciplined than you.
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MSG(P) (Join to see)
SGT(P) Mickles, I would agree that it doesn't necessarily show a lack of discipline or professionalism, when taken as an isolated incident. However, what if there a number of small deficiencies that are all menial? If that's a problem where is the line that makes a Soldier undisciplined? Two deficiencies, three, ten?
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Cpl Westin Sandberg
Could you really say a service member is undisciplined or unprofessional because he has trouble remembering to button a button he never sees? Or he puts his hands in his pockets? What if he is the most hard charging, tactically proficient, competent, knowledgeable, slayer of bodies? If you saw CPL Kyle Carpenter (most recent recipient of the medal of honor, (Oohrah 2/9)) would you try to put him at parade rest for not having his back button buttoned? Would it make him undisciplined or unprofessional? Of course not! We all have a lot on our plates at all times, and unless you're unsat for a inspection or reporting in, who cares?
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