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What is everyone's thoughts about when a unit member is arrested by civilian authorities?
Does that view change when the member is higher in rank?
Over the course of my 16 years I have seen the following:
TSgt arrested for kiddie porn (Interpol)
TSgt arrested for kiddie porn and abusing kids on base
SrA arrested for sex with a minor
SrA arrested for kiddie porn
MSgt arrested for spousal abuse
A1C arrested for kiddie porn
SrA arrested for murder
On the Military side:
Lt Col apprehended for multiple charges of having unprofessional relationships with female subordinates
MSgt apprehended for unprofessional relationship with female subordinate
MSgt (1st Sgt) apprehended for unprofessional relationship with female subordinate
Do you talk about it as a leader when it event happens or do you hold off and try to prevent the gossip mill?
Does the fact that many Police/Sheriff Departments post real time booking photos change how you approach the subject?
Does that view change when the member is higher in rank?
Over the course of my 16 years I have seen the following:
TSgt arrested for kiddie porn (Interpol)
TSgt arrested for kiddie porn and abusing kids on base
SrA arrested for sex with a minor
SrA arrested for kiddie porn
MSgt arrested for spousal abuse
A1C arrested for kiddie porn
SrA arrested for murder
On the Military side:
Lt Col apprehended for multiple charges of having unprofessional relationships with female subordinates
MSgt apprehended for unprofessional relationship with female subordinate
MSgt (1st Sgt) apprehended for unprofessional relationship with female subordinate
Do you talk about it as a leader when it event happens or do you hold off and try to prevent the gossip mill?
Does the fact that many Police/Sheriff Departments post real time booking photos change how you approach the subject?
Posted 11 y ago
Responses: 7
You can't stop the rumor mill. The allegations are going to get out. You can't hide the ongoing investigation. You need to get what you can out in the open as soon as possible.
Once the charges are read, the command and staff are going to know. Command and staff can't keep a secret. It's the truth, they can't. You can request the accused be there to address everyone, or you can proceed with getting everyone together and going over what is known at the time with the Service Member's team. This prevents the spread of the gossip and disinformation. It can also cause witnesses to come forward and expedite the investigation so the accused can get through the process faster.
The choice to support or abandon an accused individual is a personal choice, but it should be done with all known facts. I remember being deployed to Iraq and having the BDE CDR address everyone at one time regarding allegations of impropriety of an unnamed Service Member. I remember being in Afghanistan when a different BDE CDR put the accused on blast, names and allegations without benefit of trial and in some cases, even an investigation.
I feel the first CDR had it right, it addressed potential criminal behavior and the CMD's stance while allowing the accused anonymity. The second CDR grossly mishandled the situation making association alone enough to end someone's career leaving potentially innocent individuals feeling abandoned and betrayed.
Once the charges are read, the command and staff are going to know. Command and staff can't keep a secret. It's the truth, they can't. You can request the accused be there to address everyone, or you can proceed with getting everyone together and going over what is known at the time with the Service Member's team. This prevents the spread of the gossip and disinformation. It can also cause witnesses to come forward and expedite the investigation so the accused can get through the process faster.
The choice to support or abandon an accused individual is a personal choice, but it should be done with all known facts. I remember being deployed to Iraq and having the BDE CDR address everyone at one time regarding allegations of impropriety of an unnamed Service Member. I remember being in Afghanistan when a different BDE CDR put the accused on blast, names and allegations without benefit of trial and in some cases, even an investigation.
I feel the first CDR had it right, it addressed potential criminal behavior and the CMD's stance while allowing the accused anonymity. The second CDR grossly mishandled the situation making association alone enough to end someone's career leaving potentially innocent individuals feeling abandoned and betrayed.
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Well if is a felony and they do it off base then they answer to the civilian authorities, if it is a minor crime then feed them to the 1Sgt. If you commit a felony under the UCMJ, you will wish it was being handled by the civilians.
If Joe does something dumb on base, then again feed him to the 1Sgt
Commit a felony in another nation, better hope their prisons are not worse then ours, you may not get out alive.
Do something dumb off base in another country you may get the ass whooping of your life. It is well know that you do not mess with German police.
If Joe does something dumb on base, then again feed him to the 1Sgt
Commit a felony in another nation, better hope their prisons are not worse then ours, you may not get out alive.
Do something dumb off base in another country you may get the ass whooping of your life. It is well know that you do not mess with German police.
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Lt Col (Join to see)
Sometimes the civilian DA can chose to hand a felony over to the military court depending on the relationship with military base and if the DA feels the military will give a heavier sentence.
At Grand Forks two Airman did a drive by attempting to kill another Airman over a love triangle. They shot the airman off base. The GF DA handed it over to the JAG. One got 10 years the other 15.
At Grand Forks two Airman did a drive by attempting to kill another Airman over a love triangle. They shot the airman off base. The GF DA handed it over to the JAG. One got 10 years the other 15.
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SGT James LeFebvre
The DAs office must have had a good relationship with the post. Maybe he/she knew the airmen would get worse punishments from the military court than the civilian.
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I had a soldier in my platoon babysit for another member of the platoon and raped the 16 month old girl. It was a good thing he was arrested by the local police, he may have never been found... Enjoyed taking his mail to him after he was removed from the general inmates, I could barley recognize him from the beating he got before trial. His crime was off post so the locals had priority. I can only pray the guy got the same thing done to him, everyday, for his 15 years to life sentence, as the 16 month old girl.
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Can be a touchy subject in units. The few times that it happened while I was a unit 1SG, I called in all my PSG and their PLT Ldrs and the commander and I would discuss the issue with them from their stand point as leaders in their platoons and encourage them to discuss it with their soldiers in a non-determination (guilt nor innocense). This was primarily to get the rumor mill shut down before it got started. NO, it didn't always work, however, it did help in the fact that most of the rumors were brought back to the unit leadership to be made aware of. Three incidents jump to mind quickly: 1. SSG accused of inappropriate relations with a teenager(same sex). 2. A fellow 1SG arrested for selling drugs and 3. Bn Chaplain abuse of position and inappropriate relation with 2 female officers he was counseling.
1 and 3 resulted in discharges; number 2 went to Leavenworth. The higher the rank the more the talk that went on among the lower ranks in the unit and battalion. Of course from the Bn leadership, the word went out that it was not to be discussed, but that was like putting more wood in the fireplace and pouring a bit of gas over it. Didn't work.
I always beleived that the sooner the unit leadership addresses the issue within the unit from a leadership perspective, it does take away a bit of the organizational sensationalism that can come with these events. Leadership needs to take the stance, "OK, this has happened, we know it, we know it's going to be talked about; Leave judgement to those who have the judgement decision powers, and OBTW....let's get back to work, it's a temporary blackeye....they heal and go away. Now move out
1 and 3 resulted in discharges; number 2 went to Leavenworth. The higher the rank the more the talk that went on among the lower ranks in the unit and battalion. Of course from the Bn leadership, the word went out that it was not to be discussed, but that was like putting more wood in the fireplace and pouring a bit of gas over it. Didn't work.
I always beleived that the sooner the unit leadership addresses the issue within the unit from a leadership perspective, it does take away a bit of the organizational sensationalism that can come with these events. Leadership needs to take the stance, "OK, this has happened, we know it, we know it's going to be talked about; Leave judgement to those who have the judgement decision powers, and OBTW....let's get back to work, it's a temporary blackeye....they heal and go away. Now move out
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SGM (Join to see)
I had the grave misfortune to go to Armor school as an E-8. The school cadre immediately decided that I was in charge of the school from 1630 until 0800 the following morning, and that they had no need to pull CQ, or anything else.
I called the entire school to a formation at 1635 the evening I was told this. I said:
1) If you knock on my door after 2200, you had better have uncontrolled bleeding or something much worse. Otherwise you had better be in the front leaning rest, and I expect to find you still there the following morning.
2) If you are picked up by the police, I GUARANTEE you will still be there at 0800 the following morning when I tell the cadre why you missed formation.
Interestingly enough, no one knocked on my door after 2100 and no one got in trouble with the law.
I called the entire school to a formation at 1635 the evening I was told this. I said:
1) If you knock on my door after 2200, you had better have uncontrolled bleeding or something much worse. Otherwise you had better be in the front leaning rest, and I expect to find you still there the following morning.
2) If you are picked up by the police, I GUARANTEE you will still be there at 0800 the following morning when I tell the cadre why you missed formation.
Interestingly enough, no one knocked on my door after 2100 and no one got in trouble with the law.
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First, assuming the individual is under your authority, you must ensure your higher chain of command is informed and accepted and execute any guidance thet they might want you to follow. In the absence of higher level guidance I would meet with the individual's leadership and develop a plan of action. My initial reaction would be to have the members of the individual organizational level informed of the specifics to stop rumors.
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I do not think that an active duty member of the military should be arrested by civilian police. Unless the situation demands it to keep others safe. I think the M.P.s should be utilized and the service member held by the military, and delivered to the civilian court as needed.
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TSgt Joshua Copeland
SGT Steve Oakes, What training do you feel that MP's (SF in the AF) have over civilian LEOs?
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PO2 David Reilly
@SGT Steve Oakes I do understand what you mean, but there are going to be circumstances that it isn't feasible to wait for MPs or SPs to arrive on scene. I also have to question if MPs and SPs acting as law enforcement, other than as prisoner transport, would be a breach of Posse Comitatus. Is there anyone with a law background that might be able to address that?
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SGT Steve Oakes
I really don't know what the answer to my concerns would be. My thinking is a Military Police Officer would possibly have access to the service members records and know going in what, if any special training they had. Also a service member might be more receptive to a military authority figure than a civilian one. Again I do not pretend to have the answer. I am just concerned that the civilian police might find themselves out matched. Perhapse a Military Police Officer could be on hand as an advisor.
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SGT James LeFebvre
PO2 Reilly, pretty sure that would violate Posse Comitatus unless the service members are used merely to assist the police/sheriff's deputies. I can see cases of service members arrested that maybe a chaplain going with the cops might defuse tensions.
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Here is some more food for thought.
AFI 1-1 AIR FORCE STANDARDS
2.10. Self Reporting Criminal Conviction. If you are above the pay grade of E-6, on active
duty, or in an active status in a Reserve Component and are convicted of any violation of a
criminal law, you must report, in writing, the conviction to your first-line military supervisor
within 15 days of the date of conviction. Depending on the level of your security clearance,
there may be additional, more specific reporting requirements (e.g., reporting arrests, in addition to convictions) which must be met. (AFPD 36-29, Military Standards)
AFI 1-1 AIR FORCE STANDARDS
2.10. Self Reporting Criminal Conviction. If you are above the pay grade of E-6, on active
duty, or in an active status in a Reserve Component and are convicted of any violation of a
criminal law, you must report, in writing, the conviction to your first-line military supervisor
within 15 days of the date of conviction. Depending on the level of your security clearance,
there may be additional, more specific reporting requirements (e.g., reporting arrests, in addition to convictions) which must be met. (AFPD 36-29, Military Standards)
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