Posted on Feb 8, 2014
MAJ Joseph Parker
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The Iranian Navy has a "fleet" in route to US territorial waters right now (Atlantic side) in response to our warships operating in the Persian Gulf. Their fleet is going to "send us a message". 10 FEB UPDATE: TODAY THE IRAN GOVERNMENT RELEASED A VIDEO SIMULATION SHOWING THAT THEIR NAVAL SHIPS CAN RELEASE ARMED DRONES AGAINST TARGETS IN ISREAL AND THE US, AND SHOWING SIMULATED HITS ON PUBLIC AREAS. THE VIDEO, ALTHOUGH AMATEURISH BY OUR STANDARDS, WAS A VERY HAM-HANDED SIGNAL INDICATING THAT THE THREAT POSED BY IRANIAN WARSHIPS IN ROUTE TO US WATERS WAS NOT TO BE IGNORED.


http://americanmilitarynews.com/2014/02/threat-iran-broadcasts-simulated-bombing-us-aircraft-carrier/


Who handles the message? the Navy or the Coast Guard? The Iran Navy capabilities  in comparison to either the USN or USCG are laughable, but they do have submarines, they can interdict civilian traffic, they can infiltrate and land people and material, and they can electronically eavesdrop and interfere. Do we handle them the way we handle the Chinese and Russians?


Would like to hear from our Navy and Coasties on this one! 

Posted in these groups: Navy NavyUnited states coast guard seal Coast GuardIran logo Iran
Edited 12 y ago
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1px xxx
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Edited 12 y ago
Let's be a little careful about we handle these ships. They are carrying about 30 navy academy cadets for training along with their regular crews.  The last think we need to see splashed across CNN are headlines and stories re hurting a bunch of sea scouts.

If they stray a bit too close for comfort, how about letting the Coast Guard do simple on board health, welfare, contraband, navigation and safety equipment inspections? 

If all else fails, disable their rudders and offer them a tow to more agreeable location. 
MAJ Joseph Parker
MAJ Joseph Parker
12 y

Sandy, I like this answer! It gives what action we should do and assigns the responsibility for action on the USCG.


The touchy part of this whole thing is (a) will the Iranians deliberately or inadvertently violate the 200NM line; and (b) if they do, will they resist the instructions and boarding of the USCG teams? These are rhetorical questions of course, but nothing good is going to come of this seaborne Iranian venture.

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SSG Laureano Pabon
SSG Laureano Pabon
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Even though this comment by 1LT Sandy sounds rational and the best way to approach this. Let's not forget that before 911, threats to attack the USA were known similar to this.

That was not know by many and those who heard it kind of brushed it off. Until 911 became a reality. This ship is not coming here close by our waters because they are training, and according too the story, this was made know way before this ship sailed. It was know that Iran had this planed for some time. Same as before 911. But fact is the intentions are not fully know, until they arrive CNN finds out and makes it new media so the Iranians can hear it first hand.  

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1px xxx
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I worry about nuclear waste materials etc.  Someone should do very thorough slow close pass with nuclear detectors and chemical and biological agent sniffers long before this fleet gets anywhere near us.  
MAJ Joseph Parker
MAJ Joseph Parker
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Good points by 1LT Annala and SSG Pabon. Hope everybody saw Iran's "video" on the drones they might launch (10 FEB).
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LTC Paul Labrador
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Shadow them to ensure they do not stray into US territorial waters.  If they do, they should be stopped and escorted out.  If they refuse, sink their asses.
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MAJ Joseph Parker
MAJ Joseph Parker
12 y

Sir; as an Airborne Ranger I like your answer! As a military diplomat, my first recommendation to the SecDef or President would be to seize the ships, if possible.


Entering US waters in and of itself is a hostile act. However, their "fleet" is still incredibly small as a military threat, and the US doesn't want to look like a bully on the world stage. If, during the course of seizing the Iranian ships, they resisted or fired shots, then the USCG and (if needed) the USN go into combat mode.


One last thing: We have to keep in mind that the mission of their "fleet" may be to provoke a military action so that the Iranian regime has justification for some kind of terrorism in the Gulf or elsewhere.

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CPT Mike M.
CPT Mike M.
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Sir, would we really be seen as a bully?  I think bullies go looking for fights.  This situation is more like the fight deliberately and knowingly came looking for us and we just ended it.  If a mosquito bites you, do you not swat it?  And this talk about "well, we do it to them" doesn't fly in my book either.  We do it to them because of their actions which are not in accordance with the views of the international community.  They earned their blockades.  Someone comes to try to do the same to us in any way and I say we introduce them to some of the more infrequently seen members of the deep sea animal kingdom.
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MAJ Joseph Parker
MAJ Joseph Parker
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CPT Miller: There is great merit in your post. I wonder if our current civilian leadership has the disposition for that kind of decision?

 

Oh, let me add one thing, as a question moderator I sometimes have to play both sides of a point. Would we be seen as a bully? Heck, a lot of the world already thinks we are bullies. To them I say -  Too bad. We are America and I can't hear your whining over my freedom and awesomeness. As a 48 I have to give a more "measured" and professional opinion.

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MSG Healthcare Specialist (Combat Medic)
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As long as they stay outside of/skirt our waters they are fine. (I am picturing my son annoyingly putting his finger in my daughters face and saying "I'm not touching you!  I'm not touching you!)

However, the second they show signs of threat (which they won't) we will just have to kill them until they die from it.
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MAJ Joseph Parker
MAJ Joseph Parker
12 y

MSG; you have just cleverly summed up the international laws of the sea and the diplomatic tactic of reciprocity.


Let's go back to October of 1962. The US puts missiles in Turkey (I'm not touching you!). The USSR reciprocates by putting missiles in Cuba (I'm not touching you!). The US Navy blockades Cuba (I'm not touching you and nobody else is, either). Now that was a nuclear war threat. The question is: what is the threat? What will happen when we kill them until they die from it?


I like your post!

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MSG Healthcare Specialist (Combat Medic)
MSG (Join to see)
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Thank you sir!

As far as them sailing ships here, they rarely leave the Persian Gulf. 

Lets see if they can find their way here first.  In a stunning reversal of history, they may actually land in India and call everyone there Americans. 

In reference to the threat, well, as usual nobody can give an honest answer as to how far advanced their nuclear program is (not that they couldn't just obtain from another country). 

I don't think sinking of their ship (in our waters) would be enough to cause that level of response.  I am sure the posturing period afterwards would be remarkable, but ultimately that would be the worst of it.

We wouldn't start a ground war with them because we just responded to their actions and they have enough to worry about over there to try to bring war here. 

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MAJ Joseph Parker
MAJ Joseph Parker
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MSG; you have a gift for prose!


I believe that they actually sent a couple of warships through the Suez to Syria in 2012. That may be their largest naval venture since Sinbad.

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MSG Healthcare Specialist (Combat Medic)
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Considering Sinbad wrecked on literally all seven of his voyages, I guess the Suez is the greatest naval achievement thus far.
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UPDATED: How will we handle the upcoming Iran Navy incursion on US Territorial waters?
LTC Program Manager
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This is exactly what we have done to them for the last 35 years.  They are not a threat to the US and never have been.
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MAJ Joseph Parker
MAJ Joseph Parker
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Major; You are correct in the strictest sense. This is called "reciprocity" in the diplomatic world. We do it to them - they are entitled to do it to us. You are also correct from a strategic power point of view. It is almost a repeat of "The Mouse That Roared" (a great movie). However, there are some real political and intelligence considerations to this action. You may also have one of the political solutions: ignore them. However, I can guarantee you the intelligence community will not do that. 
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1px xxx
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I wouldn't exactly say that MAJ Miller.
Cpl Ray Fernandez
Cpl Ray Fernandez
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They are a threat it wouldn't take much for them to block traffic through the Strait of Hormuz. The ability to strict strategically isn't always based on how forces match up, but what damage can be done economically. About 20% of the world's petroleum (roughly 35% of the world's sea traded petroleum) passes through there and at its narrowest it's only 21 nautical miles wide.

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LTC Martin Metz
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Pushing Iranian naval efforts have been going on for at least the last year or so without much attention. Considering the condition and type vessels being used, it only plays well to the Iranian home front for political propaganda. While it may seem provocative, I think the visit has largely been ignored by the US press. We shouldn't get too complacent in case future visits serve as a cover to greater mischief.
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MAJ Joseph Parker
MAJ Joseph Parker
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LTC Metz: Sir, you bring up an interesting aspect with the press. I've seen a number of articles on the internet (MSN and Yahoo)and on FNN, but don't know how it is playing beyond that.


Al Jazeera has a US cable news outlet and is available in our area. It's worth a look to see if they are covering this and how.

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CPT Intelligence Exercise Planner
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Hell sir, the last time the Iranian Navy tried to "send us a message" we ended up rescuing their sailors off of one of the ships before it sank.

 

I think we need to wait and see if their "fleet" actually survives the Atlantic crossing before we figure out who is going to rescue them when they run into trouble off our shores. LOL

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MAJ Joseph Parker
MAJ Joseph Parker
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CPT, you may be correct. The Iranian Navy isn't exactly a blue water fleet. However, we should be careful about underestimating them or any other threat: The USS Cole comes to mind.  Also, they don't have to menace our warships if they get here. Operating out of Cuba or Venezuela they can menace commercial boating, oil platforms, or friendly nations.


And yes, their ships and midgets submarines are copies of North Korean products, made in Iran! If one of those fine vessels goes down in the Gulf of Mexico because somebody forgot to replace a stopper or something, the USCG will probably rescue the crew. Then the USA will get blamed for sinking the ship. 

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CPT Intelligence Exercise Planner
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Completely agree, sir.  We should not underestimate them; even small dogs bite (actually, more often than big dogs).  But your final point is my biggest worry.  If one of the members of their "fleet" sinks anywhere or at anytime during this fiasco (highly likely given their track record), the Iranian's will blame us and achieve their goal, i.e. embarassing us.  It won't matter that we will probably risk our own Navy personnel to rescue them if we are nearby, they will scream "Act of war!"
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MAJ Joseph Parker
MAJ Joseph Parker
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CPT Robert M: Just read that the mighty Iranian fleet consists of a frigate and a supply ship, which makes sense. It's probably their largest warship and largest supply ship. If so, the fleet would consist of an Alvand class frigate and the 33,000 ton Kharg military supply ship (oiler), which is armed and has a helicopter deck, and can carry 3 helicopters. The Alvand and Kharg have deployed together before, to Syria in 2012.
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PO2 Ron Hornsby
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If Iran is indeed sending a "fleet" of war ships into United States territory then all bets are off! You know as well as I do that no one sends a fleet to send a message! To spend that kind of money just to see what we as a nation is going to do is ridiculous! They have nuclear weapons capabilities everyone knows this and what they want is the USN to confront them in international waters So they can say we attacked them without prejudice, and that my friends will be the start of WWIII! They may be ignorant but they are not stupid! They will not come into US waters!
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MAJ Joseph Parker
MAJ Joseph Parker
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PO2 Hornsby: Agreed. They won't try, but they will challenge. We do it, The Chinese do it, everybody does it. The question is, how will we handle them when they push it, and who will handle it? I don't see the Iranians as great open water sailors, so if they do cross into US territorial waters it will most likely be because of their poor navigation. However, you can bet they will approach, see what happens, back off, assess, and repeat.


Now PO2 Hornsby, consider this: An Iranian warship is sitting 220 NM off the coast of Florida, and a Florida-registered civilian boat leaves Miami, goes out to the Iranian ship, pulls alongside for 8 hours, then starts back to Miami....

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PO2 Ron Hornsby
PO2 Ron Hornsby
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as soon as the "Florida registered" vessel crosses the 200NM line the Coast Gaurd should be there "asking questions". Now if the Iranians do come close to our waters the Coast Guard should be the first to react with Big Brother USN right behind them with a carrier
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MAJ Joseph Parker
MAJ Joseph Parker
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PO2 Hornsby: Ok!
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SGT Cda 564, Assistant Team Sergeant
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Edited 12 y ago
I will approach this from a different angle.

If I were the Iranian Admiral, I would test the reaction time/seriousness of the US by first entering the airspace 200NM out as the imaginary line is from seabed to outer space. This allows me to make good on my threat, yet keep my larger assets ( the actual ships) out of US waterways. It is also more likely to cause a violent reaction by the US so that I can claim being attacked first. 

What would you do in this instance?

Does one or two jets or rotary wing craft make the ships they came from "violators" also??

Seize the ships, shoot the planes down or both?

I have been watching this closely as a CBRN soldier, but I can not find where they have any type of aircraft capable ships in their fleet. Im sure that if they do not have ships capable of jets, they do have at least helipads that can launch rotary wing aircraft. 

I am more concerned that with the official boundaries only starting at the waterfront of our states. they can actually get much closer than 200nm to certain parts of Texas and still be in Mexico's waters. Also with Florida being so close to Cuba they could actually stay in Cuban waters and be closer than 200NM as well. As I understand it the 200NM is a max only if it does not intrude on another countries waterway? Thus the Cuban Conundrum! 
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MAJ Joseph Parker
MAJ Joseph Parker
12 y
<p>SGT Micah B: Good assessment! This is not a military threat, but a political and intelligence threat. The Iranians will most likely probe, push, and see how much they can get away with. For example, how close to the "line" can they get before there is a response? Where does the response come from? What kind of response? Can they film themselves being overflown by US aircraft, etc.?</p><p><br></p><p>Here's an interesting thought: The Iranians produce a 29 meter midget submarine, <span dir="auto">Ghadir-class. Why not bring one along and test that with some Mexican drug lords in the Gulf of Mexico? There is all kinds of mischief that can be done. </span></p><p><span dir="auto"><br></span></p><p><span dir="auto"><br></span></p>
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CPT Intelligence Exercise Planner
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SGT Blackburn,

 

The Iranians largest ship is an Alvand class frigate (they have three).  Although it was not designed to carry any aircraft, it is large enough to be fitted with a single armed transport helicopter (probably the Sikorsky CH-53 Sea Stallion) or two smaller recon helicopters.  They are building a larger Sahand class frigate that will carry this compliment of rotary wing aircraft as a standard feature.

For perspective, the Sahand is approximately 325 feet in length and has a total displacement of 2,000 tons.  The SMALLEST ship in one of our carrier groups is the Burke class destroyer at 510 feet and around 8,500 tons displacement.

The Iranians also have six diesel subs that I seriously doubt they would risk in this dog and pony show since their actions are, by default, hidden from the media.

As stated by MAJ Parker, this is a political stunt.  I think the worst case scenario for the U.S. would be one of these ships sinking at the edge of U.S. territorial waters as a result of an accident or incompetence.  You know they would immediately claim that we were responsible.

Hell, former Iranian President Ahmadinejad once claimed that we had caused a deadly earthquake in Iran with a secret new weapon we had developed. LMAO

Of course, this makes more sense than the cleric who claimed the earthquakes were being caused by Iranian women dressing promiscuously.  :) 

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MAJ Joseph Parker
MAJ Joseph Parker
12 y

Good NOB assessment, CPT. As the Iranians, row, row, row their boats across the Atlantic; the challenge for our forces is going to be how we handle whatever happens without letting it blow up into something stupid. In fact, without letting it blow up into anything at all...unless there is another US political goal in mind that none of us is aware of.


Was unaware that promiscuously dressed Iranian women were causing earthquakes. Goodness! We could bring that whole country down with one aircraft load of California Girls (cue Beach Boys music). 

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SPC Dan Goforth
SPC Dan Goforth
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MAJ Parker, Best zinger I've heard in a while.
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SGT Nathan Huff
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Edited 12 y ago
If they are actually head this way, they would have to first enter our waters, then by UNALOS we still could do nothing as long as they did not attack or damage  / do illegal activities that is defined within UNALOS and our marine laws. 

So if they do come I expect nothing will happen. Now if they did something foolish, as in attack some one or damage maritime endangered life, or purposely spill oil in our sea. Then we could do something. They would quickly end up sunk of captured.

But it is my opinion, nothing is going to happen. 
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SSG Ralph Watkins
SSG Ralph Watkins
12 y
We need to go back to the same games we played with the Soviets back during the Cold War.  Did things get dicey? Absolutely.  Our Navy & Air Force were great at shadowing, infringing upon, & harassment of the Soviets skirting our territory, let's do the same with the Iranians.
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MAJ Joseph Parker
MAJ Joseph Parker
12 y
It may very well come to that. It's the safest way, but we have a different defense structure now. Does Homeland Security and USCG hand it or USN?
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SGT Nathan Huff
SGT Nathan Huff
12 y
UNCLOS.. that was a typo on my part.

the US signed it in 1994 


Iran also signed it.

"Article 30
Non-compliance by warships with the laws and regulations of the coastal State. If any warship does not comply with the laws and regulations of the coastal State concerning passage through the territorial sea and disregards any request for compliance therewith which is made to it, the coastal State may require it to leave the territorial sea immediately.
 
Article 31
Responsibility of the flag State for damage caused by a warship or other government ship operated for non-commercial purposes The flag State shall bear international responsibility for any loss or damage to the coastal State resulting from the non-compliance by a warship or other government ship operated for non-commercial purposes with the laws and regulations of the coastal State concerning passage through the
territorial sea or with the provisions of this Convention or other rules of international law."



Now there is much more concerning this subject. but what I quoted are key points. Now it also defined what sort of laws a Coastal state can make.  Article 20 and 21 of the UNCLOS are also points to look at.

Now with out going into to much details. what I can say is that as long as Irans warship follow the innocent passage guidelines and do not harm our waters, there is nothing we can legally do.
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MAJ Joseph Parker
MAJ Joseph Parker
12 y

SGT Huff: Thank you! Excellent answer. I like the documentation.  Recommend you see 1LT Annala's post.


However, as I read this article, a warship does NOT have freedom of passage, and must comply with the directives of the Coastal State. It appears no different than airspace and getting overfly permission.

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SSG Conex
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I will be drinking Mai Tai's at the beach.
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MAJ Joseph Parker
MAJ Joseph Parker
12 y

SSG Scott S.: I have noticed this same, laid back attitude in many of your other posts on RP. Just exactly what ARE your duties there at MacDill?


In any event, If you are at the beach sipping your Mai Tais and some Iran Navy wreckage floats onto the beach, please do the following:

1. Police up the wreckage. A clean beach is a happy beach and this is your duty anyway. If you don't feel like doing it, then get some lower ranking enlisted together for a police call, in the time-honored tradition of the military.

2. Sell the wreckage on e-bay with letters of authentication.

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SSG Conex
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Sir, although I may have a laid back approach to life (why stress?).  Believe my duties at MacDill are taken care.  I think I put the job title on my profile.  To your other tidbits of advice I will take those into consideration.
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