Posted on Apr 14, 2015
USAR: On orders during BA - must be made up or no?
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If you're on orders, and a battle assembly falls in that time period, I've always been taught that you don't have to make it up, that you get a 'B' code (on orders) and don't have to make it up unless you want to. Now I have a friend who's in WLC for 2 weeks, a BA falls during that time, and they're making her make it up. Does anyone have a regulatory cite to prove she doesn't have to?
UPDATE:
Thanks to my friend's chain of command just not giving a rip about their Soldiers' civilian job commitments, as evidenced by establishing a MUTA-12 for no good reason, my friend decided to let her contract expire, and she is no longer in the Guard at all. Thanks for the advice, everyone. She's a happy civilian now.
UPDATE:
Thanks to my friend's chain of command just not giving a rip about their Soldiers' civilian job commitments, as evidenced by establishing a MUTA-12 for no good reason, my friend decided to let her contract expire, and she is no longer in the Guard at all. Thanks for the advice, everyone. She's a happy civilian now.
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Edited >1 y ago
Posted >1 y ago
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Edit: The following paragraph is wrong, as SSG (Join to see) 's reference to the regulation shows. It is clearly at the commander's discretion. I am leaving it unchanged, because I believe that's how it SHOULD work. Of course, that and a buck will get me a cup of coffee.
No. You cannot be required to "make up." You are already in a paid status on those days. Your recollection is exactly correct, should be coded as "on orders." End of story. This is not like an RST or and Auth Absence, where the CMD needs to approve (rather, they did when they approved the orders....)
That said, lots of units seem to decide that the rules are different than the rules. In fact, I would say most. At that point it becomes a "hill I'm willing to die on" question. In my case, I would happily "make up" the drill dates, though I don't think the reg would allow it to be as an RST - would have to be an additional drill. Having been on orders, there is nothing to reschedule.... If I had a civilian job that was highly inflexible, I might have a different opinion.
CPT Catherine R. can you supply the relevant reg(s)?
No. You cannot be required to "make up." You are already in a paid status on those days. Your recollection is exactly correct, should be coded as "on orders." End of story. This is not like an RST or and Auth Absence, where the CMD needs to approve (rather, they did when they approved the orders....)
That said, lots of units seem to decide that the rules are different than the rules. In fact, I would say most. At that point it becomes a "hill I'm willing to die on" question. In my case, I would happily "make up" the drill dates, though I don't think the reg would allow it to be as an RST - would have to be an additional drill. Having been on orders, there is nothing to reschedule.... If I had a civilian job that was highly inflexible, I might have a different opinion.
CPT Catherine R. can you supply the relevant reg(s)?
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CPT Catherine R.
Full disclosure: I haven't worked USAR finance for over a year BUT I did work it for 15 years prior.
AR 140-1, 3-10.
"c. Soldiers attending schools in a ADT or AT status. Soldiers ordered to active duty under 10 USC 672(d), 673, or
673(b) may be credited with constructive attendance if the commander determines that the service is equivalent to the
training the soldier would have received during the scheduled IDT period and additional attendance at IDT constitutes
undue personal hardship. When the above criteria are met, constructive attendance credit will be granted to soldiers
who consent to attend schools in ADT status and are ordered to active duty under 10 USC 672(d). Soldiers ordered to
active duty are not entitled to IDT pay for assemblies missed while on active duty"
AR 140-1, 3-10.
"c. Soldiers attending schools in a ADT or AT status. Soldiers ordered to active duty under 10 USC 672(d), 673, or
673(b) may be credited with constructive attendance if the commander determines that the service is equivalent to the
training the soldier would have received during the scheduled IDT period and additional attendance at IDT constitutes
undue personal hardship. When the above criteria are met, constructive attendance credit will be granted to soldiers
who consent to attend schools in ADT status and are ordered to active duty under 10 USC 672(d). Soldiers ordered to
active duty are not entitled to IDT pay for assemblies missed while on active duty"
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CW2(P) (Join to see)
I think it is actually coded as T for Training. While I was at WOCS, I was on AD orders, but could not make up the BA I missed because it was coded as T for Training. In my previous experience as a squad leader. If I had a soldier under me or in my platoon that was going to miss a BA because of school, I would ask the soldier if they wanted to be able to make up the BA before or after the school dates. I would then go to the PSG, PL Leader, then the 1SG & CO to ask if they could make up the BA. It should be up to the soldier and the CO. Of course if they are approved before they go to csholl to be able to make up the BA; the coding will not be T it will be one for RST.
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I'm wondering what task is so critical that a Commander would force an E4 to drill a few more days? Sounds like some CPT trying to puff their chest. I don't get it. It smacks in the face of the CARs intent to provide work/life balance. In addition, it also violates the CARs guidance of what takes precedence, PME over BA/AT. Regardless of statute, this absolute does not pass the common sense test. There is absolutely NO training event so significant that some E4 (or anyone for that matter) needs to come back and do two more days of duty to accomplish, ESPECIALLY after putting them on ORDERS at a school during BA. SMH? Personally if one of my Company Commanders did that and the Soldier open doored me as the Battalion Commander I would grant it at my level and offer the CPT a lesson on karma. Now if the Soldier needed the money and WANTED to do a few days in the office I'd be happy to grant that RST at a mutually convenient time for them and the unit full timers.
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CW3 (Join to see)
You'd be surprised, COL (Join to see) a couple of units ago, I had an E4 that was in a unit in Baltimore wanting to come down to the unit I was in at Fort Belvoir....mainly due to him living in Fairfax Station, and having no LIK for Baltimore....
That unit demanded that his transfer packet get approved by the BATTALION commander....for an E4 non-MOSQ.
It's gotta be a Reserve thing. Too many officers want control down to too low of a level.
That unit demanded that his transfer packet get approved by the BATTALION commander....for an E4 non-MOSQ.
It's gotta be a Reserve thing. Too many officers want control down to too low of a level.
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CPT (Join to see)
COL (Join to see) - Sir, although this isn't a route that I would take, the only examples that I can come up with are a potentially deploying unit in which he is in the roster somehow, in which time we would be looking to do pre-mob things like SRP and planning.
Option 2 is if the Soldier is failing to meet a standard such as height weight and APFT. Regardless, this seems like a hard line approach to me.... but with some restrictions paved on us by higher, it may be the commander trying to find a creative to maximize available resources on a scarce MOS or enhance mission readiness.
I still agree that this doesn't pass a common sense test..... but I'd like to think the are other viable options. Call me the hopeless optimist. Lol
V/R,
CPT Butler
Option 2 is if the Soldier is failing to meet a standard such as height weight and APFT. Regardless, this seems like a hard line approach to me.... but with some restrictions paved on us by higher, it may be the commander trying to find a creative to maximize available resources on a scarce MOS or enhance mission readiness.
I still agree that this doesn't pass a common sense test..... but I'd like to think the are other viable options. Call me the hopeless optimist. Lol
V/R,
CPT Butler
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JD, The coding on the Commanders Pay report is based on what the Commander decides.
The soldier still needs to submit an RST exception for the WLC course and have the discussion at that time if the BA will be shifted to Alternate dates or 'excused'. Ultimately this is the commanders call.
Maybe an S1 type will tell us something different, but that is how I ran my units.
The soldier still needs to submit an RST exception for the WLC course and have the discussion at that time if the BA will be shifted to Alternate dates or 'excused'. Ultimately this is the commanders call.
Maybe an S1 type will tell us something different, but that is how I ran my units.
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LTC (Join to see)
CW3 (Join to see), I'm in total agreement with LTC John Shaw. Those MUTAs are the commander's prerogative to control, of course under the 1SG's advice. A commander cannot take those days away from a Soldier, but certainly can force a Soldier to use them to accomplish the mission.
With that said, I would probably come down in favor of permitting the absence. This is a junior leader who has just completed a great accomplishment, completing WLC and hopefully becoming an NCO. On the other hand, the commander may have pressure to maximize use of MUTAs because of the budget environment. USARC is held responsible for unused MUTAs; if you aren't using them, why have them?
Also, if the Soldier in question has particular skills or unique responsibilities, USR or UPL for instance, that cannot be fulfilled by another, then I would definitely require use of the MUTAs.
With that said, I would probably come down in favor of permitting the absence. This is a junior leader who has just completed a great accomplishment, completing WLC and hopefully becoming an NCO. On the other hand, the commander may have pressure to maximize use of MUTAs because of the budget environment. USARC is held responsible for unused MUTAs; if you aren't using them, why have them?
Also, if the Soldier in question has particular skills or unique responsibilities, USR or UPL for instance, that cannot be fulfilled by another, then I would definitely require use of the MUTAs.
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CW3 (Join to see)
Then the orders should have been scheduled for a period that doesn't cause the soldier to miss the BA if it's that important. This is a soldier getting the shaft due to poor leadership.
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LTC John Shaw
CW3 (Join to see) I get your point. I will allow an authorized absence but I would ask the soldier to RST with a specific activity that will either help the soldier, section, squad or unit maintain readiness. It is part of training soldiers to step up beyond the minimum expected, as we all must do in the NG or Reserve. I can't remember the last time, I just did the once a month activity. Most work in the Reserve is w/o pay, after 3 retirement points.
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CPT Pedro Meza
It is all about retirement points, you can be excused for drills, but no retirement points will be given. The same applies for the points that the unit receives for its members having all the points required.
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