Posted on Jan 3, 2014
USASMA: Should individuals receive a masters degree upon successful graduation?
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<p>Someone please correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think individuals receive a degree upon graduating from USASMA. Do you think they should? If so, what level and what type of degree? </p><p><br></p><p>There are loads of officer educational programs that are available for officers to continue their education and obtain higher degrees. Why not for SGM/CSM? Please all USASMA grads weigh in on this. </p><p><br></p><p>My personal take on this is that USASMA graduates should be accredited with a Masters degree, but I'm having a little difficulty deciding which specialty. I would lean towards a masters in human services counseling, specifically military resilience. Could possibly took at political science or business administration, I'm just not too sure.</p><p><br></p><p>I believe the USASMA course was restructured to allow Sergeants Major to graduate with a degree, but it just allows the individual to work on their individual study while taking the course. Once again, please correct me if I'm wrong.</p><p><br></p>
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Education
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In my experience being stationed here with USASMA many of the soldiers don't even show up with a bachelors so how could they award them aasters? Also why should they go to school for a year and get their masters when everyone else has to go for like two years including myself?
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SSG (Join to see)
Hell yea, maybe count towards college credit but I don't think there should be a degree awarded.
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Suspended Profile
Unfortunately, in the civilian world, in order to avoid being classified as a worthless degree paper mill, the USASMA would have to submit their proposed curriculum for evaluation and undergo periodic re-evaluation by a nationally or regionally recognized accrediting body (e.g. ACE [American Council On Education]) that among other criteria requires completion of a nationally or regionally accredited four year BA/BS degree program prior to admission to any graduate program.<div><br></div><div>Many accredited colleges allow transfer of perhaps 12 to 16 undergraduate units from USAMSA - but there is one program supported by a broad range of colleges granting substantial credit earned in USASMA resident program toward associate's or bachelor's degrees - </div><div><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-family: Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; -webkit-tap-highlight-color: rgba(26, 26, 26, 0.292969); -webkit-composition-fill-color: rgba(175, 192, 227, 0.230469); -webkit-composition-frame-color: rgba(77, 128, 180, 0.230469); color: rgb(0, 0, 0); -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; font-size: medium; "><br></span></div><div><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-family: Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; -webkit-tap-highlight-color: rgba(26, 26, 26, 0.292969); -webkit-composition-fill-color: rgba(175, 192, 227, 0.230469); -webkit-composition-frame-color: rgba(77, 128, 180, 0.230469); color: rgb(0, 0, 0); -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; font-size: medium; ">http://www.soc.aascu.org/socad/CollAmSoldier.html</span></div><span class="Apple-style-span" style="-webkit-tap-highlight-color: rgba(26, 26, 26, 0.296875); -webkit-composition-fill-color: rgba(175, 192, 227, 0.230469); -webkit-composition-frame-color: rgba(77, 128, 180, 0.230469); "><div style="padding-top: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; "><font class="Apple-style-span" color="#000000" face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="3"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="padding-top: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; -webkit-tap-highlight-color: rgba(26, 26, 26, 0.292969); -webkit-composition-fill-color: rgba(175, 192, 227, 0.230469); -webkit-composition-frame-color: rgba(77, 128, 180, 0.230469); -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; "><br style="padding-top: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; "></span></font></div><font class="Apple-style-span" color="#000000" face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="3"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="padding-top: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; -webkit-tap-highlight-color: rgba(26, 26, 26, 0.292969); -webkit-composition-fill-color: rgba(175, 192, 227, 0.230469); -webkit-composition-frame-color: rgba(77, 128, 180, 0.230469); -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; ">Participating colleges certify up-front the amount of credit to be applied to the Career NCO Degree based on American Council on Education (ACE) credit recommendations. Credit awards range from 45-67% of associate degrees for Soldiers completing SMC resident and from 31-38% of Bachelor’s degrees for Soldiers completing SMC resident. Individualized assessment may provide additional credits for MOS training and experience, testing, professional certification, prior learning and functional training.</span></font></span><div><br></div><div><font class="Apple-style-span" color="#000000" face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="3"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="-webkit-tap-highlight-color: rgba(26, 26, 26, 0.292969); -webkit-composition-fill-color: rgba(175, 192, 227, 0.230469); -webkit-composition-frame-color: rgba(77, 128, 180, 0.230469); -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto;">My take is that most officers already possess a four year degree - so officers may be routinely admitted to graduate degree programs. Many enlisted service members have earned four year undergraduate degrees and can pursue online or resident graduate degree programs. But, if an enlisted service member does not have an undergraduate degree it would be far more credible to earn a fully accredited four year undergraduate bachelor's degree first.</span></font></div><div><font class="Apple-style-span" color="#000000" face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="3"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="-webkit-tap-highlight-color: rgba(26, 26, 26, 0.292969); -webkit-composition-fill-color: rgba(175, 192, 227, 0.230469); -webkit-composition-frame-color: rgba(77, 128, 180, 0.230469); -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto;"><br></span></font></div><div><font class="Apple-style-span" color="#000000" face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="3"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="-webkit-tap-highlight-color: rgba(26, 26, 26, 0.292969); -webkit-composition-fill-color: rgba(175, 192, 227, 0.230469); -webkit-composition-frame-color: rgba(77, 128, 180, 0.230469); -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto;">Please do not waste time or money on unaccredited degree programs as they will not get you very far in the civilian world.</span></font></div><div><font class="Apple-style-span" color="#000000" face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="3"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="-webkit-tap-highlight-color: rgba(26, 26, 26, 0.292969); -webkit-composition-fill-color: rgba(175, 192, 227, 0.230469); -webkit-composition-frame-color: rgba(77, 128, 180, 0.230469); -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto;"><br></span></font></div><div><font class="Apple-style-span" color="#000000" face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="3"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="-webkit-tap-highlight-color: rgba(26, 26, 26, 0.292969); -webkit-composition-fill-color: rgba(175, 192, 227, 0.230469); -webkit-composition-frame-color: rgba(77, 128, 180, 0.230469); -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto;">Apart from speciality technical degrees (e.g. engineering, medical, computer science), the degrees that appear to be most prized are business degrees, including most particularly the MBA degree. If I were to reformulate the USAMSA curriculum for maximum impact in the civilian world, with substantial benefit to the military world, I would do what is possible to make course components equivalent to as much of a fully accredited undergraduate business degree program as possible - to minimize additional outside units required for graduation. </span></font></div><div><font class="Apple-style-span" color="#000000" face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="3"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="-webkit-tap-highlight-color: rgba(26, 26, 26, 0.292969); -webkit-composition-fill-color: rgba(175, 192, 227, 0.230469); -webkit-composition-frame-color: rgba(77, 128, 180, 0.230469); -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto;"><br></span></font></div><div><font class="Apple-style-span" color="#000000" face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="3"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="-webkit-tap-highlight-color: rgba(26, 26, 26, 0.292969); -webkit-composition-fill-color: rgba(175, 192, 227, 0.230469); -webkit-composition-frame-color: rgba(77, 128, 180, 0.230469); -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto;">Whatever level of enlistment, if you want a degree to improve your skills and best possible opportunities for employment and advancement in the military or civilian world, I would explore all available DoD affiliated programs, including:</span></font></div><div><font class="Apple-style-span" color="#000000" face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="3"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="-webkit-tap-highlight-color: rgba(26, 26, 26, 0.292969); -webkit-composition-fill-color: rgba(175, 192, 227, 0.230469); -webkit-composition-frame-color: rgba(77, 128, 180, 0.230469); -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto;"><br></span></font></div><font class="Apple-style-span" color="#000000" face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="3"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="-webkit-tap-highlight-color: rgba(26, 26, 26, 0.292969); -webkit-composition-fill-color: rgba(175, 192, 227, 0.230469); -webkit-composition-frame-color: rgba(77, 128, 180, 0.230469); -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto;">http://www.soc.aascu.org/</span></font><div><font class="Apple-style-span" color="#000000" face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="3"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="-webkit-tap-highlight-color: rgba(26, 26, 26, 0.292969); -webkit-composition-fill-color: rgba(175, 192, 227, 0.230469); -webkit-composition-frame-color: rgba(77, 128, 180, 0.230469); -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto;"><br></span></font><div><font class="Apple-style-span" color="#000000" face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="3"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="-webkit-tap-highlight-color: rgba(26, 26, 26, 0.292969); -webkit-composition-fill-color: rgba(175, 192, 227, 0.230469); -webkit-composition-frame-color: rgba(77, 128, 180, 0.230469); -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; "><br></span></font></div></div><div class="pta-link-card"><div class="pta-link-card-picture"><img src="http://www.soc.aascu.org/images/SOCBanner.gif"></div><div class="pta-link-card-content"><div class="pta-link-card-title"><a target="_blank" href="http://www.soc.aascu.org/">Servicemembers Opportunity Colleges</a></div><div class="pta-link-card-description">For More Information:
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MAJ (Join to see)
Correct! Just like the ILE ( Command and Staff College) and the SSC (War College) are both regionally accredited. Another issue is that all officer training is considered graduate level due to the fact that every officer has a BS/BA degree. Could we really require that all SGM have a 4-year degree? I think no, since USC Title 10 doesn't require it. Great point.
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SGM Matthew Quick
Hmmm.....<div class="pta-link-card"><div class="pta-link-card-picture"><img src="https://www.rallypoint.com/assets/fb_share_logo.png"></div><div class="pta-link-card-content"><div class="pta-link-card-title"><a target="_blank" href="https://www.rallypoint.com/questions/10626-should-a-4-year-degree-be-a-requirement-for-selection-to-e-9">Should a 4-year degree be a requirement for selection to E-9?</a></div><div class="pta-link-card-description">With the military moving to a leaner, agile and more educated force, should it's top leaders be required to have a baccalaureate&nbsp;degree prior to selection or prior to promotion?</div></div><div style="clear:both"></div><div class="pta-box-hide"><i class="icon-remove"></i></div></div>
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COL (Join to see)
and just to be clear, ILE (CGSC) is not completely accredited. You can't take the core courses and get a masters degree. You have to take additional classes outside of the core courses in order to earn a Masters in Military Arts and Sciences. The follow on School of Advanced Military Studies (SAMS) does provide a Masters in Military Arts and Sciences however, but is a MUCH more rigorous course taught by PhD's and ABD PhD candidates.
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SFC Ewing - Yes, you would be hard-pressed to figure out exactly which type of Masters Degree would be appropriate.
If you were to take a look at the POI, you would see that it's not very focused in any one thing and that is what a Masters Degree is about - a specialization in something.
USASMA introduces you to a lot of operational-level stuff but does not make you an expert at anything, especially being a new SGM.
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No, arbitrary graduate degrees do not correlate with graduation from the Sergeants Major Course.<br><br>If there were to be a graduate degree with the Sergeants Major Course graduation, I would surmise it to be a Masters of Leadership.<br><br>Beginning with Class 64 (current class), we are Master Resilient (MRT) certified.<br><br>Additionally, starting with Class 64, we take 5 closed book exams (one per semester) and 5 open books exams (again, one per semester) and graded writing/oral presentations. Unlike our predecessors, time has not been allocated (semester dependent) for students to take college (graduate level or undergrad) during the day...it'll be on your own time.
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CSM (Join to see)
I once heard those that had degrees were forced to volunteer after duty hours is that still the case or fiction?
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MSG (Join to see)
Fiction. I arrived with an AAS degree. Like many of my peers in class 64 I've been deploying too much over the last 10 years or so to be able to take college courses so my time at USASMA is the first chance in a while and I'm taking advantage of it. I've got two classes left and will leave with a BS in Liberal Arts. It's not necessarily the degree I wanted as a primary choice but it's a degree and I can always go to school and train more after the Army. Should we leave USASMA with a Masters Degree? Heck no. It's not needed for our job. Some colleges do award a few credits toward a Masters for USASMA graduates. We should continue to go to college when we leave if we want a graduate degree. CSM time probably won't allow for it but staff time probably will, depending on the unit of course. Just another humble opinion.
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SFC Jeffrey Thivierge, MA, BSN, RN
I don't know if any of you have considered Brandman University. It's a regionally accredited school based in California, with satellite campuses in Washington state. Upon completion of SLC, senior NCOs are granted credit for 5 graduate courses, leaving you with only 7 graduate level courses to complete a Master of Arts in Organizational Leadership. This is, however, granted that you already have a bachelor's degree from a regionally accredited school. I suggest all of those looking for that education credential look into this. I did it. Completed the degree in 1 year.
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I have some strong opinions on this topic that have most likely been covered already, but here goes. I feel that all levels of NCOES should have some sort of civilian education credit for the soldier as they progress in their career. Now saying that I am aware that you can get credits once you enroll or do a credit inventory. I feel this is something the Army can do for the soldier thru one of the many colleges that are accredited by the Army.
I also feel that upon completion of certain levels of NCOES or other MOS/ASI producing courses should qualify soldiers for different types of technical certificates. A example of this would be aviation soldiers earning an A&P license after service related training. I can do twenty years working on helicopters in some of the most diverse environments in the world and if I want a good paying job upon retirement doing the same thing I did while in uniform I must pay for the license and training.
So I guess my short answer is yes you should be able to receive a masters upon completion of USASMA. But, you should start by getting the other NCOES level to start the path to that degree.
Hope that makes some sense.
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SFC (Join to see)
<p>I agree with you, I think the problem lies within HOW the Army changes things, and who is involved with the accrediation process. Some of this we are familiar with, due to our last position, dealing with affecting changes and all that comes with it. Some of it, I have no clue of. More specifically, the new Enlisted Training Module for Army Aviation, should "groom" and certify Soldiers who meet the marks throughout their career maintaining airframes will earn their A&P certification...if I am not mistaken. As a whole Army thing...I am not sure if I agree or disagree, and after taking/teaching some graduate level academics it would be a great way to "weed-out" the CTRL F folks out there, who do enough to just get by. I guess it would depend upon the degree of which you were to be awarded.</p><p> </p>
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hello everyone (CLASS 56) In my experience being @ Academy many of the MSGs/SGMS don't came with an AA or Bachelor's, so I would have to said NO!!! I can see if some of them show up with a Bachelor's then is understandable that some of them will leave with their Masters.. lots of those classes that they teach at the Academy are more into management and leadership, so some folks may want their master on something us that will be more beneficial on the civilian sector (concentration on a specific job)...
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SFC Victor Serrano
True, a Masters degree should not be awarded for attending the academy. Many NCO's do not even have an Associate's degree. Too many NCO's do not even bother taking two evenings out a week to take a college class. I managed to acquire two degrees, a Bachelors and Master's degree before I retired. I managed to take college classes between field training exercises, deployments, and various TDY assignments. I used tuition assistance and best of all No Student Debt!. Thank you, U.S. Army.
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Thank you all for the feedback. I just notice the mistake I made in my original question. I meant to take out "masters" and just state, "...receive a degree upon...." With the career experience and training that Sergeants Major receive, I would like to see a course for them or even MSGs to afford them opportunities to earn a degree upon completion.
Yes, it builds character and says a lot about an individual that can complete a degree while holding demanding positions, but outside of their Army careers for those that have worked, 20+, 25+, 30+ years, what is another benefit. In a career map, it shows what we should strive to attain, why not have a specific course, that NCOs could compete for, be selected for, and upon completion, would earn a degree? Different levels of degrees pending the course curriculum? Our leaders could work with the ACE to develop something, test it, and then send it up for approval/disapproval.
I'm not recommending this as a "handout" for senior NCOs, but possibly another aspiration to strive for to assist them outside the Army.
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SSG(P) (Join to see)
It depends on what type of degree it is, if it is a Masters in General Studies and the USASMA meets the requirements for a Masters than yes. I'm completing my Masters now, and the course work is nothing like anything I have completed so far in the Military. I know that the Sergeant Major Academy teaches a lot, but what can they learn within the time they attend that course to be awarded a degree? In what field? And will this degree be recognized by civilian employers?
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CSM Mike Maynard
Here's the problem with awarding a degree based primarily on military experience and military schools - civilians will then start to "discount" any degree earned by a veteran.
Here is what I mean by this - if it is you're experience and schools that are earning you a degree, then you are not adding anything to your skill set, you're just getting constructive credit for it and trying to make it look like something else.
The civilian job market will see/understand this and will be even more averse to hiring a veteran if they require a certain knowledge/skill-set that they know is usually trained by taking certain college courses.
They not only want to see your military experience, but they want to see your civilian experience (ie, your college degree), that you earned traditionally by taking the same kinds of classes and learning the same kinds of things as your civilian co-workers.
Not sure why so many folks believe that what we do in the military translates to college - it is far different (better in my mind), but very different and by actually taking college classes you learn different skills and you learn different ways to approach problems - this is how we get better - do something new, something different.
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I can't speak for the current USASMA curriculum, but when I graduated in July 1992 (Class 17 Non-Resident Course) there were no degrees awarded specifically for completing the academy's POI. Students were encouraged and expected to continue their civilian education while they were at Bliss, but it wasn't part of the actual POI. A lot of resident students do complete a bachelors or masters while there.
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SSG (Join to see)
I know with every ncoes or training I have been doing school. It is the perfect time to get courses knocked out.
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I feel that the classes we received at USASMA are instrumental in both the US Military and in the civilian work force and should receive some type of collegiate accreditation. I was in Class 55. If you have an undergraduate degree the classes in writing, presentations, research, and the NSA alone should be accredited. If someone has an AA degree, or Bachelors, or working on a Masters, this course should provide some type of accreditation for the next higher degree. The course was as challenging as many in the college world, if not more. We also contributed volunteer time in the community, not counting our physical fitness tests and demands weekly, so this should be accredited also. My vote is for USASMA to take a deep look at providing college credits for at least the 9 month residence course that I was a member of towards any degree, and not just a Masters.
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I agree with you. While I have not been to USASMA I know there is a lot of work involved and the students are expected to perform at a higher level. Making it a degree granting program would make it more prestigious.
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