Posted on Feb 15, 2016
Was Abraham Lincoln a hero or criminal? Why?
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Posted in these groups: 
Constitution
American History
Constitution American History
Posted 9 y ago
Responses: 7
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He'd be thought of more of a Nixon in today's world. However back then he got away with a number of things because he could and given the situation, the ends justify the means aspect was acceptable to him and others. We've had others, including military leaders like Patton and Rickover, who were "ends" types who got away with it then but would have the piranhas chewing them down from the toes up in today's world. People tend to look at Lincoln as a hero because about 95% of what they are exposed to are the positives. Jack Kennedy and MLK Jr. were both adulterers and J Edgar was most likely a pedophile. However we like our heroes so tend to whitewash the warts. It just goes to show our heroes are much more complex and usually have dark sides as well.
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CDR Michael Goldschmidt
To me, the ends have never justified the means. Lincoln didn't give a damn about the Constitution, Captain, and showed his contempt for it at pretty much every turn. People don't realize, for instance, that Lincoln, by Presidential decree, invoked the first income tax, the first draft, went to war with the Confederacy without a declaration of war, established Alcatraz as a prison for political prisoners, and many more offenses.
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George Washington helped create our Union. Abraham Lincoln kept it together. So, hero.
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MAJ (Join to see)
CDR Michael Goldschmidt - I would argue that it wasn't a union until Lincoln. Prior to the Civil War people said "the United States are," after the civil war people said "the United States is." We weren't truly unified until after the civil war solidified the wholeness of the country.
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CDR Michael Goldschmidt
A union is an alliance, MAJ (Join to see). After the Civil War, it ceased being an alliance, because it was no longer voluntary. Lincoln even contended that the Union predated the states, themselves. Do the math in the Gettysburg Address. He said our forefathers brought forth onto the continent A new nation, NOT 13 nations. Change the language and you change history. Lincoln knew that.
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MAJ (Join to see)
I think we're speaking in circles. Prior to Lincoln we weren't one nation, but rather multiple States. Lincoln solidified the states as one nation, and made us stronger because of it.
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I would have to go with hero.
Granted he did some things; such as suspending Habeus Corpus, which was unpopular but it was necessary to save the union. Without his leadership I doubt the United States would have survived for very long.
Granted he did some things; such as suspending Habeus Corpus, which was unpopular but it was necessary to save the union. Without his leadership I doubt the United States would have survived for very long.
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CDR Michael Goldschmidt
Thanks for the reply. Agree to disagree. (Before Lincoln: "these United States". Post-Lincoln: "the United States".)
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SFC (Join to see)
That is a very interesting point you make there. Before the civil war we saw ourselves as a collection of states assembled as one nation rather than simply one nation. I believe we are better because of that.
If it were not for us seeing ourselves as Americans first and citizens of our home state second, then I don't know if we could have become the superpower that we are today. I would rather not imagine the potential butterfly effects of the confederacy had been successful.
- Would the U.S.A and C.S.A have worked together to defeat the Spanish?
- Would there have even been a war with Spain?
-Would we have worked together to defeat Germany in World War I or Hitler's Germany in WWII?
- Assuming the Spanish- American War doesn't happen, would we have been able to defeat Japan in WWII without the Naval bases we gained from that war? Etc.......
Bottom line, love him or hate him it's a fact that Lincoln crushed the confederacy and preserved the union. And that was well worth any cost that was paid for it.
If it were not for us seeing ourselves as Americans first and citizens of our home state second, then I don't know if we could have become the superpower that we are today. I would rather not imagine the potential butterfly effects of the confederacy had been successful.
- Would the U.S.A and C.S.A have worked together to defeat the Spanish?
- Would there have even been a war with Spain?
-Would we have worked together to defeat Germany in World War I or Hitler's Germany in WWII?
- Assuming the Spanish- American War doesn't happen, would we have been able to defeat Japan in WWII without the Naval bases we gained from that war? Etc.......
Bottom line, love him or hate him it's a fact that Lincoln crushed the confederacy and preserved the union. And that was well worth any cost that was paid for it.
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