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I am in the Army Reserve and this past weekend my unit and I went to the range. While at the range, I was told that one of my AGR E5 NCOs was being very disrespectful and unprofessional towards other NCOs and Officers while he was a range safety. Afterwards, my SFC supply sergeant asked him if he cleaned his weapon and he stated that he was not going to clean his MFing weapon. The SFC brought this to my attention and I said I would handle it. Later on, when I saw him again, I has him put away some items he was carrying and instructed him to bring his weapon while we walked to a secluded area. I had my LT platoon leader come with me. While I was doing this and trying to talk to him, he continuously interrupted me and was not treating me like his senior. I put him at the position of attention then told him to get in the front leaning rest position and he said he wasn't going to effing do that. I said great, let's go see the CSM. The CSM sided with him and said I escalated things too quickly (he said this with my E5 right there). He then said that he hold his AGR Soldiers at a higher standard than just a regular reservist. My brain was boiling... Doesn't take any consideration to my prior active time, my deployment, my rank, my leadership history.
I understand I might have escalated quickly but don't demean me in front my my Soldiers. I was going to have him in the front leaning rest while I calmly talk to him. I just wanted him to be uncomfortable while I explain what professionalism is and what the NCO Creed stands for and that I won't tolerate one of my NCOs disrespecting other NCOs or Officers.
Was I wrong in what I was doing? Am I too old school for today's Army? How could I have handled things differently? Now he probably thinks he is untouchable...
Update: So that individual got promoted and is awaiting transfer. He and I talked about what happened and he apologized for how he reacted. I just left it at that. I understand where I went wrong and if something like that happens again, I will be more prepared with having paperwork ready to escalate.
To give a little more insight on my unit, we are essentially the command part of a larger unit which we oversee. Similar to an HQ or HHC. It's hospital unit and we're the hospital center. Those of you who've been in a hospital unit, you probably understand the unique dynamic. With that being said, my position is basically the 1SG but with a squad sized element. My next higher up is the CSM, which is why I went to him instead of a 1SG.
I understand I might have escalated quickly but don't demean me in front my my Soldiers. I was going to have him in the front leaning rest while I calmly talk to him. I just wanted him to be uncomfortable while I explain what professionalism is and what the NCO Creed stands for and that I won't tolerate one of my NCOs disrespecting other NCOs or Officers.
Was I wrong in what I was doing? Am I too old school for today's Army? How could I have handled things differently? Now he probably thinks he is untouchable...
Update: So that individual got promoted and is awaiting transfer. He and I talked about what happened and he apologized for how he reacted. I just left it at that. I understand where I went wrong and if something like that happens again, I will be more prepared with having paperwork ready to escalate.
To give a little more insight on my unit, we are essentially the command part of a larger unit which we oversee. Similar to an HQ or HHC. It's hospital unit and we're the hospital center. Those of you who've been in a hospital unit, you probably understand the unique dynamic. With that being said, my position is basically the 1SG but with a squad sized element. My next higher up is the CSM, which is why I went to him instead of a 1SG.
Army Reserve Elements
NCOs
Leadership
Career Counselor
Career Advice
Edited 2 y ago
Posted 3 y ago
Responses: 168
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This old SGM just got the ass. The NG and AR have let Standards go to hell. This WOKE BS that has permeated DOD has got to stop ASAP or we will NEVER beat another adversary. I will not call that CSM my Brother because he is nothing but a REMF POS!
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I do not have enough information to give a really good answer , but I will try.
my First question,
is the SSG in question normally disrespectful ?
is he Normally unprofessional towards other service members that he works with?
if Yes , has it been documented?
if No, I would start, by making sure this incident gets Documented.
I would also ensure it goes in his jacket , but before I did this I would speak to other in his chain of command to find out if this is his normal behavior? or is there something going on that we do not know about
I would have attempted to speak to him , with a witness of course, in order to find out what is going on in his personal life, is he having Marital issues?, is his wife leaving him or Divorcing him? has he suffered a loss of a family member or close friend? etc.
why would I ask these questions?
I know many service members believe we can separate are personal Lives from are work lives, this is a myth. what happens in your personal life will effect your work life, and what happens at work will effect your home life, we are only human
after speaking to him to, find out why he is acting out, to see if I can help him, in any way possible, remember as leaders we are there to educate and mentor, it is easy to mentor the go getter, a little harder with the I just here guy, even harder with the young adult walking the fine line, but that the one you should mentor, who needs your help
so after speaking to him that will determine my next course of action,
I might just send him to speak to someone, or take discipline action or something in between
it is all determined by what I find out,
this will determine my next course of action , do not misunderstand no matter what he will clean his weapon and give a public apology to his fellow NCO , no matter what. I do not care if I had to sit there with him all night .
his actions will determine what type of paperwork, or if any would be involved at all.
we all have bad days , one bad day should not ruin us
as for the action of the CSM,
I would as politely and respectfully as possible, ask that the CSM to please educate me, on his decision to support a Júnior enlisted member who not only disrespected every Officer, Senior enlisted personal, he also disrespected the CO & CSM himself.
so why is he defending him?
I would remind the CSM, as the senior enlisted personal you are the Direct Representative and voice of the command, of the CO, AND CSM.
by allowing this Junior enlisted to disrespect every senior enlisted and junior officer he is disrespecting the CO, and CSM, because Leadership start at the top. every single enlisted member and junior officers are a direct reflection of the CO and CSM leadership.
So I would Ask the CSM to please educate me on his reasoning , because one day I hope to be in his position, so I need to understand why he is risking Good order and discipline under his command
By protecting this bad junior enlisted person . what does the CSM know that I do not?
I would remind the CSM, as the senior enlisted personal on scene I am the direct Representative of the CO, and CSM, so when I SPEAK, and give a lawful order it is the same as if that order has come from the CO or the CSM himself , so I need to know why he is undermining his own command authority.
as the Senior enlisted member you are speaking for the CO AND CSM , EVERYTHING WE SAY AND DO IS A DIRECT REFLECTION OF THE CO AND CSM. if you are in there command every word and order you give is as if it is coming directly from the CO & CSM .
When this Junior enlisted Member was purposely disrespecting every Officer & senior enlisted member , he was also spitting in the CO & CSM FACE.
So explain to the CSM, that one day you hope to be a CSM, in a leadership position, so I would really like to understand his reasoning, as to why he would purposely sided with the Junior enlisted member who not only disrespected every senior enlisted and officer in his command while encourage the junior enlisted personal to start disobeying all lawful orders
make no mistake, other junior enlisted will start testing his command
I need to understand why he would risk this.
with the CSM allowing this junior enlisted personal to Openly be Disrespectful to every Senior enlisted person and Júnior officer he meets, he is showing the commands poor leadership style and it wont be long before other junior enlisted start testing the command .
everyone needs to remember leadership starts at the very top , if your command is full of dirtbags, or go getters , it is a direct refection upon the CO and his CSM leadership style it really is that simple.
so as a future CSM, I would want to know his reasoning, he could have a very valid reason , so I like to know so I can learn , he could have a piss poor reason, I need to know that also, it will help me understand his leadership style , is it something I want to instill in my leadership style, or is it something I never want to use.
this is why you have to ask, we never stop learning
my First question,
is the SSG in question normally disrespectful ?
is he Normally unprofessional towards other service members that he works with?
if Yes , has it been documented?
if No, I would start, by making sure this incident gets Documented.
I would also ensure it goes in his jacket , but before I did this I would speak to other in his chain of command to find out if this is his normal behavior? or is there something going on that we do not know about
I would have attempted to speak to him , with a witness of course, in order to find out what is going on in his personal life, is he having Marital issues?, is his wife leaving him or Divorcing him? has he suffered a loss of a family member or close friend? etc.
why would I ask these questions?
I know many service members believe we can separate are personal Lives from are work lives, this is a myth. what happens in your personal life will effect your work life, and what happens at work will effect your home life, we are only human
after speaking to him to, find out why he is acting out, to see if I can help him, in any way possible, remember as leaders we are there to educate and mentor, it is easy to mentor the go getter, a little harder with the I just here guy, even harder with the young adult walking the fine line, but that the one you should mentor, who needs your help
so after speaking to him that will determine my next course of action,
I might just send him to speak to someone, or take discipline action or something in between
it is all determined by what I find out,
this will determine my next course of action , do not misunderstand no matter what he will clean his weapon and give a public apology to his fellow NCO , no matter what. I do not care if I had to sit there with him all night .
his actions will determine what type of paperwork, or if any would be involved at all.
we all have bad days , one bad day should not ruin us
as for the action of the CSM,
I would as politely and respectfully as possible, ask that the CSM to please educate me, on his decision to support a Júnior enlisted member who not only disrespected every Officer, Senior enlisted personal, he also disrespected the CO & CSM himself.
so why is he defending him?
I would remind the CSM, as the senior enlisted personal you are the Direct Representative and voice of the command, of the CO, AND CSM.
by allowing this Junior enlisted to disrespect every senior enlisted and junior officer he is disrespecting the CO, and CSM, because Leadership start at the top. every single enlisted member and junior officers are a direct reflection of the CO and CSM leadership.
So I would Ask the CSM to please educate me on his reasoning , because one day I hope to be in his position, so I need to understand why he is risking Good order and discipline under his command
By protecting this bad junior enlisted person . what does the CSM know that I do not?
I would remind the CSM, as the senior enlisted personal on scene I am the direct Representative of the CO, and CSM, so when I SPEAK, and give a lawful order it is the same as if that order has come from the CO or the CSM himself , so I need to know why he is undermining his own command authority.
as the Senior enlisted member you are speaking for the CO AND CSM , EVERYTHING WE SAY AND DO IS A DIRECT REFLECTION OF THE CO AND CSM. if you are in there command every word and order you give is as if it is coming directly from the CO & CSM .
When this Junior enlisted Member was purposely disrespecting every Officer & senior enlisted member , he was also spitting in the CO & CSM FACE.
So explain to the CSM, that one day you hope to be a CSM, in a leadership position, so I would really like to understand his reasoning, as to why he would purposely sided with the Junior enlisted member who not only disrespected every senior enlisted and officer in his command while encourage the junior enlisted personal to start disobeying all lawful orders
make no mistake, other junior enlisted will start testing his command
I need to understand why he would risk this.
with the CSM allowing this junior enlisted personal to Openly be Disrespectful to every Senior enlisted person and Júnior officer he meets, he is showing the commands poor leadership style and it wont be long before other junior enlisted start testing the command .
everyone needs to remember leadership starts at the very top , if your command is full of dirtbags, or go getters , it is a direct refection upon the CO and his CSM leadership style it really is that simple.
so as a future CSM, I would want to know his reasoning, he could have a very valid reason , so I like to know so I can learn , he could have a piss poor reason, I need to know that also, it will help me understand his leadership style , is it something I want to instill in my leadership style, or is it something I never want to use.
this is why you have to ask, we never stop learning
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I'm still wondering why the CSM sided with the E5? And it doesn't matter if you are old school or not, subordinates should comply. As a side note, the E5 definitely had a personal issue that needed to be dealt with - and I'd like to know what that was about. Someone on the range, should have pulled him aside and asked him what his story was and resolved it then.
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Play stupid games, win stupid prizes. Was you wrong, it depends on what your goal was. Letting him know he f(*& up and you were pissed, front leaning rest works well. Wanting to convey a message and get results, front leaning rest no so conductive to listening and comprehension. It sounds like the CSM is creating a problem that will eventually make it to being his problem. Karma.
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I mean while I don't think you were wrong addressing the situation, that should have been handled prior to going to your CSM. But I obviously wasn't there, nor do I know the solider personally. So you clearly had a reason for your choice of escalation.
"I just wanted him to be uncomfortable while I explain what professionalism is and what the NCO Creed stands for." This part I don't think would actually provide any reinforcement (just my opinion). This sort of reinforcement may make that soldier more difficult to deal with. I know that sounds silly as we're in the military and there should be an expectation of professionalism and listening to your seniors, unless you're given an unlawful order of course. If the guy you described is already acting foolish and not receptive of his senior NCO's then there is a bigger issue there.
I would not tolerate that kind of disrespect and neither should you. My suggestion is to keep a paper trail. As professionally as possible, councel him as needed. Outline what he did, why it is a problem, and what to improve on. I wish I had more to say but I've been fortunate to have some great soldiers. I know there are some soldiers who do not always make it easy. Maybe this soldier needs a bit more one on one mentoring to develop further professionally as an NCO. The AGR comment is absolutely absurd.
"I just wanted him to be uncomfortable while I explain what professionalism is and what the NCO Creed stands for." This part I don't think would actually provide any reinforcement (just my opinion). This sort of reinforcement may make that soldier more difficult to deal with. I know that sounds silly as we're in the military and there should be an expectation of professionalism and listening to your seniors, unless you're given an unlawful order of course. If the guy you described is already acting foolish and not receptive of his senior NCO's then there is a bigger issue there.
I would not tolerate that kind of disrespect and neither should you. My suggestion is to keep a paper trail. As professionally as possible, councel him as needed. Outline what he did, why it is a problem, and what to improve on. I wish I had more to say but I've been fortunate to have some great soldiers. I know there are some soldiers who do not always make it easy. Maybe this soldier needs a bit more one on one mentoring to develop further professionally as an NCO. The AGR comment is absolutely absurd.
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I believe you were not wrong in any way. Unfortunately today's service is not like the old days and glad I got out before went to heck in a hand basket.
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Wow! It's definitely changed since i was in. I don't think you did anything wrong! Respect was expected and demanded 25 years ago. I hate you were disrespected at all but especially in front of others. Good luck. And thank you for your continued service!
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I don't think you were wrong. I think your buck sergeant was f---ing wrong! As far as I can tell (outside looking in), you handled this the right way. I think CSM Eric B. said what needed to be said here, so I won't rehash it. WHAT I DO KNOW is that there would have been some serious wall-to-wall counseling back in the day!
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