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I am in the Army Reserve and this past weekend my unit and I went to the range. While at the range, I was told that one of my AGR E5 NCOs was being very disrespectful and unprofessional towards other NCOs and Officers while he was a range safety. Afterwards, my SFC supply sergeant asked him if he cleaned his weapon and he stated that he was not going to clean his MFing weapon. The SFC brought this to my attention and I said I would handle it. Later on, when I saw him again, I has him put away some items he was carrying and instructed him to bring his weapon while we walked to a secluded area. I had my LT platoon leader come with me. While I was doing this and trying to talk to him, he continuously interrupted me and was not treating me like his senior. I put him at the position of attention then told him to get in the front leaning rest position and he said he wasn't going to effing do that. I said great, let's go see the CSM. The CSM sided with him and said I escalated things too quickly (he said this with my E5 right there). He then said that he hold his AGR Soldiers at a higher standard than just a regular reservist. My brain was boiling... Doesn't take any consideration to my prior active time, my deployment, my rank, my leadership history.
I understand I might have escalated quickly but don't demean me in front my my Soldiers. I was going to have him in the front leaning rest while I calmly talk to him. I just wanted him to be uncomfortable while I explain what professionalism is and what the NCO Creed stands for and that I won't tolerate one of my NCOs disrespecting other NCOs or Officers.
Was I wrong in what I was doing? Am I too old school for today's Army? How could I have handled things differently? Now he probably thinks he is untouchable...
Update: So that individual got promoted and is awaiting transfer. He and I talked about what happened and he apologized for how he reacted. I just left it at that. I understand where I went wrong and if something like that happens again, I will be more prepared with having paperwork ready to escalate.
To give a little more insight on my unit, we are essentially the command part of a larger unit which we oversee. Similar to an HQ or HHC. It's hospital unit and we're the hospital center. Those of you who've been in a hospital unit, you probably understand the unique dynamic. With that being said, my position is basically the 1SG but with a squad sized element. My next higher up is the CSM, which is why I went to him instead of a 1SG.
I understand I might have escalated quickly but don't demean me in front my my Soldiers. I was going to have him in the front leaning rest while I calmly talk to him. I just wanted him to be uncomfortable while I explain what professionalism is and what the NCO Creed stands for and that I won't tolerate one of my NCOs disrespecting other NCOs or Officers.
Was I wrong in what I was doing? Am I too old school for today's Army? How could I have handled things differently? Now he probably thinks he is untouchable...
Update: So that individual got promoted and is awaiting transfer. He and I talked about what happened and he apologized for how he reacted. I just left it at that. I understand where I went wrong and if something like that happens again, I will be more prepared with having paperwork ready to escalate.
To give a little more insight on my unit, we are essentially the command part of a larger unit which we oversee. Similar to an HQ or HHC. It's hospital unit and we're the hospital center. Those of you who've been in a hospital unit, you probably understand the unique dynamic. With that being said, my position is basically the 1SG but with a squad sized element. My next higher up is the CSM, which is why I went to him instead of a 1SG.
Army Reserve Elements
NCOs
Leadership
Career Counselor
Career Advice
Edited 2 y ago
Posted 3 y ago
Responses: 168
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I was in the Army in the late 80s and early 90s and I don't remember not cleaning my weapon after the range was ever an option. You couldn't be released for the day until it had been inspected and locked up. This E5 should learn how to respect his chain of command. Also, the CSM siding with him is beyond ridiculous and he should have never done that in front of him. How do you side with an insubordinate E5 who won't clean his weapon? It's imperative to keep weapons clean so they fire correctly when needed. I think that CSM needs a good kick in the ass and that E5 needs a blanket party. Just kidding, blanket parties were banned before I joined.
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No you are not too old for today's Army, that nco is not prepared for war. If he does not keep his weapon combat ready then when he does go to war he will be sorry and that weapon will blow up in his face. The CSM should have understood this and sided with you. He was wrong. You did not move too fast, discipline in the military is a necessary thing, and if you do not get a handle on things like this it can escalate. It would have been better for him to get down and do his leaning position then be dead one day because he refused to follow orders. A round does not know the difference between those who understand this and those who do. One day he is going to wish he had listened.
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No, you were not wrong. The CSM was out of this mind. When I was in (USAF) and an E-5, you were an NCO. The lower ranks had to look up to you and respect you for what you had accomplished to get the rank. You never talked back to an officer or a senior NCO. If you did there would be any Article 15 written up and you would be up in front of the 1st SGT or the commander. Some people lost at least 1 ratting and pay because of it. I guess that the NEW military is different than the time I served (1969-1973).
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I’d take that as high as it needs to go.
That’s a toxic CSM who doesn’t deserve the star.
This is typically not officer’s business—-but with an AGR coddled by a CSM…….you’re going to have to do something.
Document everything. Even if he doesn’t sign.
If you don’t- you’ll look like the incompetent one when you try to give him a needs improvement.
I was a career AGR—this is horse crap.
That’s a toxic CSM who doesn’t deserve the star.
This is typically not officer’s business—-but with an AGR coddled by a CSM…….you’re going to have to do something.
Document everything. Even if he doesn’t sign.
If you don’t- you’ll look like the incompetent one when you try to give him a needs improvement.
I was a career AGR—this is horse crap.
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Different perspective here.
First, Are you this Soldier's first line supervisor, Squad leader, or Platoon Sergeant? If you aren't, what were you doing?
If you are in the Soldier's chain start by trying to take your Soldier's side. Ive worked a thousand ranges- seriously it was basicly my job for a couple years way back when. If I had a counseling statement for every time I rubbed someone wrong on the range I'd have a lot of paper.
A lot of people get called out for safety or something stupid on the range and get their egos bruised and their first response is "he was being disrespectful to me". Its a human reaction to embarrassment.
That, and sometimes, range days suck. People get hot -or cold- irritable, hungry, bruised egos from poor performance. Range safety's get worn down by stupid people with guns failing to follow simple instructions and being generally cranky.
So a lot of people arent always their best selves. Both sides of the story, maybe even you.
So I'll presume this Sgt was trying to do the right things, and getting beat up all day by people who out rank him treating him less than their best- and trust me I'm not excusing his overall behavior, but here comes SSG You, all fired up to give him an ass chewing without even asking him his side of the story. All Soldiers are entitled to outstanding leadership. From you. So lead. And chewing ass is not leading.
I ask you to recognize the human side of the leadership challenge, apply some empathy. Tell this Sgt you are trying to be on his side and want to know what was going on- not based on what a bunch of other people have told you- but by what he can tell you himself. He may actually admit he was worn out, and frustrated, and wasnt doing a great job. You can work with that.
Leave the Ograde out of it. If you need another person to have this talk, get another Soldier, maybe another E5 that he trusts. Keep NCO business as NCO business. Maybe he just needs you to help with how to be an effective range cadre without pissing in everyone's cheerios- so help him learn that.
Again, I'm not excusing all the behavior, but I suspect there's more to it than the side of the story you were operating on. Show the Soldier some empathy, demonstrate you've got his back- even when he's being an ass- and you might be surprised by the performance this Soldier will give you in the future.
Thats my 4 cents worth. I hope this helps.
Now, for everyone that is going to jump in talking about softer gentler Army, and I'm not old school enough, blah blah, the Army has been my career for nearly 32 years. I was a Senior NCO before becoming a Warrant. Ive been Regular Active, Regular Reserve, and AGR. No ass chewing without asking my side of the story ever made me perform better or trust my leadership. No ass chewing I ever gave out ever resulted in a Soldier trusting me more or performing better for me. Chewing ass doesn't fix mistakes or attitudes. Building trust and helping people learn from their dumbass mistakes does.
First, Are you this Soldier's first line supervisor, Squad leader, or Platoon Sergeant? If you aren't, what were you doing?
If you are in the Soldier's chain start by trying to take your Soldier's side. Ive worked a thousand ranges- seriously it was basicly my job for a couple years way back when. If I had a counseling statement for every time I rubbed someone wrong on the range I'd have a lot of paper.
A lot of people get called out for safety or something stupid on the range and get their egos bruised and their first response is "he was being disrespectful to me". Its a human reaction to embarrassment.
That, and sometimes, range days suck. People get hot -or cold- irritable, hungry, bruised egos from poor performance. Range safety's get worn down by stupid people with guns failing to follow simple instructions and being generally cranky.
So a lot of people arent always their best selves. Both sides of the story, maybe even you.
So I'll presume this Sgt was trying to do the right things, and getting beat up all day by people who out rank him treating him less than their best- and trust me I'm not excusing his overall behavior, but here comes SSG You, all fired up to give him an ass chewing without even asking him his side of the story. All Soldiers are entitled to outstanding leadership. From you. So lead. And chewing ass is not leading.
I ask you to recognize the human side of the leadership challenge, apply some empathy. Tell this Sgt you are trying to be on his side and want to know what was going on- not based on what a bunch of other people have told you- but by what he can tell you himself. He may actually admit he was worn out, and frustrated, and wasnt doing a great job. You can work with that.
Leave the Ograde out of it. If you need another person to have this talk, get another Soldier, maybe another E5 that he trusts. Keep NCO business as NCO business. Maybe he just needs you to help with how to be an effective range cadre without pissing in everyone's cheerios- so help him learn that.
Again, I'm not excusing all the behavior, but I suspect there's more to it than the side of the story you were operating on. Show the Soldier some empathy, demonstrate you've got his back- even when he's being an ass- and you might be surprised by the performance this Soldier will give you in the future.
Thats my 4 cents worth. I hope this helps.
Now, for everyone that is going to jump in talking about softer gentler Army, and I'm not old school enough, blah blah, the Army has been my career for nearly 32 years. I was a Senior NCO before becoming a Warrant. Ive been Regular Active, Regular Reserve, and AGR. No ass chewing without asking my side of the story ever made me perform better or trust my leadership. No ass chewing I ever gave out ever resulted in a Soldier trusting me more or performing better for me. Chewing ass doesn't fix mistakes or attitudes. Building trust and helping people learn from their dumbass mistakes does.
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I think the CSM needs his head examined. Is this what our military has come to? Disrespectful children? Because that’s what this soldier is behaving like. And if the CSM “holds his AGR guys at a higher standard” I don’t blame you for being upset. His standards are with really low or he isn’t taking his job seriously. I’m sorry but this poses ME off and I want even there. No one deserves this kind of disrespect. I would have waited until after the correction, say, pushups etc to go to the CSM if it didn’t work, but honestly I don’t know that it would have mattered
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Part of me wonders if the CSM and this shitsquirt E5 have rapport with each other, because this demonstrates a weak-wrist or favoritism.
The only time I’ve ever seen this sort of preferential treatment is when either there was a prior relationship, or if both parties were African American. This was NOT always the case with the latter, but it WAS the case in one instance I was witness to.
The only time I’ve ever seen this sort of preferential treatment is when either there was a prior relationship, or if both parties were African American. This was NOT always the case with the latter, but it WAS the case in one instance I was witness to.
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No SSG, I don’t believe you were out of line. His conduct was highly unprofessional for his rank, which he clearly doesn’t deserve.
I would have taken him before the 1SG, rather than go before the CSM, but that’s just me. I wouldn’t want my 1SG to feel snubbed in the situation.
I would have taken him before the 1SG, rather than go before the CSM, but that’s just me. I wouldn’t want my 1SG to feel snubbed in the situation.
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You were not wrong at all!! As an AGR he should be leading by example and not thinking he was better than a reservist. Most reservists do plenty of active duty time prior to go into the reserves. As a Jr. NCO he disrespected his personal responsibility to clean the weapon he used, he disrespected his fellow soldiers, his St. NCO’s, as well as stomping all over his oath! That CSM was wrong on so many levels that it is not funny!!
If that E-5 pulled that crap as a civilian he would have been fired.
In my experience, it sounds like this E-5 AGR must be in good favor with some brass or something. His evaluation should definitely reflect his insulance toward his higher command.
I am afraid that CSM just created more of a monster.
If I remember correctly, the Senior civilian in the reserve unit contributes to the AGR’s evaluation. I would talk to that individual about your concerns regarding the E-5’s insubordinate attitude.
If that E-5 pulled that crap as a civilian he would have been fired.
In my experience, it sounds like this E-5 AGR must be in good favor with some brass or something. His evaluation should definitely reflect his insulance toward his higher command.
I am afraid that CSM just created more of a monster.
If I remember correctly, the Senior civilian in the reserve unit contributes to the AGR’s evaluation. I would talk to that individual about your concerns regarding the E-5’s insubordinate attitude.
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