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I am in the Army Reserve and this past weekend my unit and I went to the range. While at the range, I was told that one of my AGR E5 NCOs was being very disrespectful and unprofessional towards other NCOs and Officers while he was a range safety. Afterwards, my SFC supply sergeant asked him if he cleaned his weapon and he stated that he was not going to clean his MFing weapon. The SFC brought this to my attention and I said I would handle it. Later on, when I saw him again, I has him put away some items he was carrying and instructed him to bring his weapon while we walked to a secluded area. I had my LT platoon leader come with me. While I was doing this and trying to talk to him, he continuously interrupted me and was not treating me like his senior. I put him at the position of attention then told him to get in the front leaning rest position and he said he wasn't going to effing do that. I said great, let's go see the CSM. The CSM sided with him and said I escalated things too quickly (he said this with my E5 right there). He then said that he hold his AGR Soldiers at a higher standard than just a regular reservist. My brain was boiling... Doesn't take any consideration to my prior active time, my deployment, my rank, my leadership history.
I understand I might have escalated quickly but don't demean me in front my my Soldiers. I was going to have him in the front leaning rest while I calmly talk to him. I just wanted him to be uncomfortable while I explain what professionalism is and what the NCO Creed stands for and that I won't tolerate one of my NCOs disrespecting other NCOs or Officers.
Was I wrong in what I was doing? Am I too old school for today's Army? How could I have handled things differently? Now he probably thinks he is untouchable...
Update: So that individual got promoted and is awaiting transfer. He and I talked about what happened and he apologized for how he reacted. I just left it at that. I understand where I went wrong and if something like that happens again, I will be more prepared with having paperwork ready to escalate.
To give a little more insight on my unit, we are essentially the command part of a larger unit which we oversee. Similar to an HQ or HHC. It's hospital unit and we're the hospital center. Those of you who've been in a hospital unit, you probably understand the unique dynamic. With that being said, my position is basically the 1SG but with a squad sized element. My next higher up is the CSM, which is why I went to him instead of a 1SG.
I understand I might have escalated quickly but don't demean me in front my my Soldiers. I was going to have him in the front leaning rest while I calmly talk to him. I just wanted him to be uncomfortable while I explain what professionalism is and what the NCO Creed stands for and that I won't tolerate one of my NCOs disrespecting other NCOs or Officers.
Was I wrong in what I was doing? Am I too old school for today's Army? How could I have handled things differently? Now he probably thinks he is untouchable...
Update: So that individual got promoted and is awaiting transfer. He and I talked about what happened and he apologized for how he reacted. I just left it at that. I understand where I went wrong and if something like that happens again, I will be more prepared with having paperwork ready to escalate.
To give a little more insight on my unit, we are essentially the command part of a larger unit which we oversee. Similar to an HQ or HHC. It's hospital unit and we're the hospital center. Those of you who've been in a hospital unit, you probably understand the unique dynamic. With that being said, my position is basically the 1SG but with a squad sized element. My next higher up is the CSM, which is why I went to him instead of a 1SG.
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Edited 2 y ago
Posted 3 y ago
Responses: 168
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And this E-5 is the guy that will be responsible for his troops when the lead flies. Wouldn't trust him at all. He is an insubordinate POG that needs to be out.
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I feel for you 100% & have been in that situation. A couple of things though: An NCO can put troops in parade rest. Attention is for officers & boards until told "at ease." Another thing: I was a drill & we did "physical punishments" which was squat thrusts--no more than 50, but this was to a bunch of private E1s (former prisoners--so a few had been E5s & E6s, yes, but all lost their rank in their court martials). So, having another NCO drop into the front leaning rest position? Probably not a great idea. The CSM chewing you out in front of the E5? Not cool. You probably should have gone to an officer & then did a write up. Oh well...hindsight 20/20 etc. Good luck going forward.
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This described situation was why I left the reserves. After 11 active, I couldn't stomach the disorganization and lack of standards and professionalism I encountered (at two different USAR units.)
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It doesn’t matter what a person’s rank or position is, standards are standards, to which NCO’s, by nature of being an NCO, are usually held to a slightly higher than normal standard so as to set an example to Jr Enlisted. I spent 21yrs in the Army Reserve, and noticed that the standards during Drill Weekend are typically lower by nature of being Reservists. The AGR’s, being Active Duty, should help lead the standards during Drill Weekend. For that AGR NCO to not lead the standard, they were in the wrong. You took them to a secluded area, following the “code” of “praise in public, criticize in private”
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This pisses me off to no end.
1 he was reported as being disrespectful to NCO and officers at the range, then he was disrespectful to the Senior NCO at the Arms room. Then he disrespected you in front of the officer. This was blatant disrespect. He was refusing corrective action.
If you locked him up at the position of attention and he continued to talk and be disrespectful, that would have been time to put pen to paper. (I would not have used the Front leaning rest position for this - that is used more for lower enlisted, not NCO's.)
The CSM in this situation is DEAD WRONG. The 1Sg's and CSM's are in charge if the discipline in the company and battalion. This CSM is failing in his duty to maintain that discipline - badly. If a soldier or NCO will act this way in peacetime, he will act this way in wartime.
Since this was so egregious I would have written him up with a counseling statement and recommended an article 15 (summarized at the minimum - personally I would be pushing for some rank to be lost as he is showing he is not deserving of that rank)
But then maybe I am an old school combat arms SFC that did not let my soldiers get away with that.
1 he was reported as being disrespectful to NCO and officers at the range, then he was disrespectful to the Senior NCO at the Arms room. Then he disrespected you in front of the officer. This was blatant disrespect. He was refusing corrective action.
If you locked him up at the position of attention and he continued to talk and be disrespectful, that would have been time to put pen to paper. (I would not have used the Front leaning rest position for this - that is used more for lower enlisted, not NCO's.)
The CSM in this situation is DEAD WRONG. The 1Sg's and CSM's are in charge if the discipline in the company and battalion. This CSM is failing in his duty to maintain that discipline - badly. If a soldier or NCO will act this way in peacetime, he will act this way in wartime.
Since this was so egregious I would have written him up with a counseling statement and recommended an article 15 (summarized at the minimum - personally I would be pushing for some rank to be lost as he is showing he is not deserving of that rank)
But then maybe I am an old school combat arms SFC that did not let my soldiers get away with that.
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SSG I worked in the weapons room alot in a Brigade if some one get a weapon out that person cleaned it a sgt cleaned a COL's weapon one time . I ask him you sent the weapon out he said no get the COL down here too clean this weapon an he came down an cleaded it too SOP.
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Seems like if you followed most up to date guidelines on escalation, by going straight to the paperwork route (counseling/ art 15) things would have been handled, possibly wouldn't have made it past promotion board due to negative paper trail and things would have been solved. Telling an adult to get on the ground so you can talk to him, even though he was in the wrong, just sounds like some Standford Prison experiment power trip. It's not effective, nor did let future leaders that may come across this individual that he's a shit bag. A paper trail does if people actually use it.
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All three of you are wrong. The E-5 either doesn't give a crap or he no longer wants to be in the Army. Either way, he needs to be released. As for you, an E6, you do outrank him but you are both NCO's. If two NCO's can't figure out a solution to such a mundane problem without their personal feelings getting in the way, our Military is screwed. As for the LT. I'm assuming he or she was a Butterbar. The LT should have stopped both your whining before it escalated.
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The work ethic is no where it used to be. According to federal and state laws you now have to cater to f___,, b-------,w ,,,,,,,, etc.
I'm glad I left when I did
I'm glad I left when I did
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My, my how the Army has changed! And NOT for the best! If that incident had occurred back in my day as his CSM he would have been given a choice of 1: Article 15 or, take this ass kicking I'm going to administer plus, do what you are told to do!
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