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I am in the Army Reserve and this past weekend my unit and I went to the range. While at the range, I was told that one of my AGR E5 NCOs was being very disrespectful and unprofessional towards other NCOs and Officers while he was a range safety. Afterwards, my SFC supply sergeant asked him if he cleaned his weapon and he stated that he was not going to clean his MFing weapon. The SFC brought this to my attention and I said I would handle it. Later on, when I saw him again, I has him put away some items he was carrying and instructed him to bring his weapon while we walked to a secluded area. I had my LT platoon leader come with me. While I was doing this and trying to talk to him, he continuously interrupted me and was not treating me like his senior. I put him at the position of attention then told him to get in the front leaning rest position and he said he wasn't going to effing do that. I said great, let's go see the CSM. The CSM sided with him and said I escalated things too quickly (he said this with my E5 right there). He then said that he hold his AGR Soldiers at a higher standard than just a regular reservist. My brain was boiling... Doesn't take any consideration to my prior active time, my deployment, my rank, my leadership history.
I understand I might have escalated quickly but don't demean me in front my my Soldiers. I was going to have him in the front leaning rest while I calmly talk to him. I just wanted him to be uncomfortable while I explain what professionalism is and what the NCO Creed stands for and that I won't tolerate one of my NCOs disrespecting other NCOs or Officers.
Was I wrong in what I was doing? Am I too old school for today's Army? How could I have handled things differently? Now he probably thinks he is untouchable...
Update: So that individual got promoted and is awaiting transfer. He and I talked about what happened and he apologized for how he reacted. I just left it at that. I understand where I went wrong and if something like that happens again, I will be more prepared with having paperwork ready to escalate.
To give a little more insight on my unit, we are essentially the command part of a larger unit which we oversee. Similar to an HQ or HHC. It's hospital unit and we're the hospital center. Those of you who've been in a hospital unit, you probably understand the unique dynamic. With that being said, my position is basically the 1SG but with a squad sized element. My next higher up is the CSM, which is why I went to him instead of a 1SG.
I understand I might have escalated quickly but don't demean me in front my my Soldiers. I was going to have him in the front leaning rest while I calmly talk to him. I just wanted him to be uncomfortable while I explain what professionalism is and what the NCO Creed stands for and that I won't tolerate one of my NCOs disrespecting other NCOs or Officers.
Was I wrong in what I was doing? Am I too old school for today's Army? How could I have handled things differently? Now he probably thinks he is untouchable...
Update: So that individual got promoted and is awaiting transfer. He and I talked about what happened and he apologized for how he reacted. I just left it at that. I understand where I went wrong and if something like that happens again, I will be more prepared with having paperwork ready to escalate.
To give a little more insight on my unit, we are essentially the command part of a larger unit which we oversee. Similar to an HQ or HHC. It's hospital unit and we're the hospital center. Those of you who've been in a hospital unit, you probably understand the unique dynamic. With that being said, my position is basically the 1SG but with a squad sized element. My next higher up is the CSM, which is why I went to him instead of a 1SG.
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Edited 2 y ago
Posted 3 y ago
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Unfortunately this is typical of behaviors I noted many times in both the Reserves and the Nat Guard after 10 years of Active Duty.
There is always a small percentage of SMs that, despite having passed Basic and AIT, have a hard time adjusting to military life regardless of branch or component.
While Active Duty is.. or at least was, a very immersive experience and makes assimilation easier, the Reserve and NG components must continually struggle to maintain discipline and morale against the notion that these components are "just playing soldier on the weekends". This notion is very pervasive and even very senior leaders fall to it. This is often evident by the over familiarity and fraternization that happens in these components.
I once had a newly minted private call me by my first name not minutes after after being assigned to my gun section on his very first weekend drill. I took what I believed was appropriate corrective action, a thorough session of upper body exercise at full volume. It took about 20 seconds for all leadership above the paygrade of E7 to call me into the office and commence informing me as to how wrong was response was because this SM was the son (or grandson, I forget) of some former unit member.
The following day, I called the Personnel NCO at Brigade and requested information on how to begin my 20 year separation paperwork. I had had enough.
So, no. IMHO You were not wrong. You are not too 'old school'. The Reserve and NG components have always been a bit too lax and unfortunately, Active Duty is also going soft.
Fuck I miss the Cold War.
There is always a small percentage of SMs that, despite having passed Basic and AIT, have a hard time adjusting to military life regardless of branch or component.
While Active Duty is.. or at least was, a very immersive experience and makes assimilation easier, the Reserve and NG components must continually struggle to maintain discipline and morale against the notion that these components are "just playing soldier on the weekends". This notion is very pervasive and even very senior leaders fall to it. This is often evident by the over familiarity and fraternization that happens in these components.
I once had a newly minted private call me by my first name not minutes after after being assigned to my gun section on his very first weekend drill. I took what I believed was appropriate corrective action, a thorough session of upper body exercise at full volume. It took about 20 seconds for all leadership above the paygrade of E7 to call me into the office and commence informing me as to how wrong was response was because this SM was the son (or grandson, I forget) of some former unit member.
The following day, I called the Personnel NCO at Brigade and requested information on how to begin my 20 year separation paperwork. I had had enough.
So, no. IMHO You were not wrong. You are not too 'old school'. The Reserve and NG components have always been a bit too lax and unfortunately, Active Duty is also going soft.
Fuck I miss the Cold War.
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Like some have mentioned here already, you were not wrong at all. And your CSM is hot garbage. The power of the pen (counseling statement) is only as good as your chain of command willing to support your plan of corrective action, which should have been to recommend UCMJ action under Article 15. That piece of waste of government funding has no business being an NCO with an attitude like that. I would've had a field day with that write up. Any insubordination like that at a range (with live ammo) is a safety violation. I would've recommended a field grade art 15 for disrespecting you and the LT. I chaptered 32 pieces of crap out of the Army while in command, thanks to the support that I received from BDE Legal and my BDE CDR. With all the wokeness ideology poisoning our ranks, it's a different Army now. Continue to do the right thing. God speed.
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You was dead wrong in trying to put him in the front leaning rest position.
You should have put him in the parade rest position and then given him guidance in the proper maintenance of his weapon. If that failed, write up a counseling statement on the events that have occurred, have corrective measures noted. You would have recieve a better outcome. If you get into a shouting match, you already lost control
You should have put him in the parade rest position and then given him guidance in the proper maintenance of his weapon. If that failed, write up a counseling statement on the events that have occurred, have corrective measures noted. You would have recieve a better outcome. If you get into a shouting match, you already lost control
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I'd be hot too! There is no cause for that Sgt to disrespect so many others. If the newer troops see that kind of response from him, they may feel that they can do as they wish too. A couple times when I was deployed as a reservist E-6, I had AD personal think that my rank was given to me, instead of being earned. I had 15 years AD, before my AFSC (MOS) was eliminated and I went to the AF Reserves. Some, in authority, do not respect the seamless force concept.
I was trained to compliment in public and counsel in private. That CSM used faulty decision making to address the problem.
I was trained to compliment in public and counsel in private. That CSM used faulty decision making to address the problem.
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As stated by SSG Gregg Mourizen below, if possible counsel him and and give him a counseling statement. He will get a COS NCOER because of the promotion and transfer; be sure to provide input to the rater ASAP, as SSG Mourizen did below. Be sure the counseling statement gets properly recorded in his records. If AGR's are held to a higher standard there, they shouldn't be, it's all the more reason he needs to clean his weapon to set the standard and provide the proper documentation for the unit Supply Sgt/Armorer so he/she doesn't fail a records inspection or evaluation from your higher HQ. All the GS 9-13 DAC Civilians in my units cleaned their individual weapons like anybody else. I would talk to your 1SG about what happened and how the CSM failed to back you up, he needs to stop that. But you have to know there is a lot of politics in the reserve program involving the full-time unit staff members, don't get caught in the middle; always CYA.
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I spent some time as an AGR soldier after my Active Duty time so I know all about this. The E5 was dead wrong, during ADT periods he is just another soldier like everybody else. Some AGR's get a power-tripping big head because they are on active duty. You and I know we have to lead by example, and he sure didn't do that. If his weapon was fired he needs to clean it. I would talk to your CDR privately and explain the situation, he needs to head off this soldier's ego before it bites him in the A$$. It doesn't matter if he is on active duty, he swore an oath to obey his general orders and all legal orders from those above him, any E6 and above. Make sure he cleans it before he transfers. Be sure to double-check the carbon buildup around the bolt face and barrel locking lugs.
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Jason I always told my Petty Officers that if there was a problem with someone of equal or lesser rank try to handle it. If that doesn't work go talk to the Chief Petty Officer for his advice/assistance. Senior to them - go talk to the Chief first. If it is an officer refer them to me and explain what the problem is.
That said - I think your approach was wrong. If the CSM is next in your chain of command why did you have the Platoon LT come with you? I don't think that was a wise decision nor was "ordering" him into the front leaning rest position. Those two actions in my opinion were way overboard. At least you followed the Praise in Public, Discipline in Private course. In reading the situation you posted yes you were wrong. A better way to handle it would be to seek the advice of the CSM before you took any action against the NCO. The CSM would more than likely asked you how you wanted to handle it - and offered his sage advice. You wrote: "I understand where I went wrong and if something like that happens again, I will be more prepared with having paperwork ready to escalate."
Each situation will be different; each action on your part will be different as well; try not to go armed for a Grizzly Bear when you may be dealing with a bunny.
I enlisted in the Navy in 1970 and then the Coast Guard in 1975. On the first of June I celebrated 23 years since my retirement as a CWO4. Today's military is a completely different animal from the one I joined 54 years ago. It is even different from the service when I retired in 2001.
That said - I think your approach was wrong. If the CSM is next in your chain of command why did you have the Platoon LT come with you? I don't think that was a wise decision nor was "ordering" him into the front leaning rest position. Those two actions in my opinion were way overboard. At least you followed the Praise in Public, Discipline in Private course. In reading the situation you posted yes you were wrong. A better way to handle it would be to seek the advice of the CSM before you took any action against the NCO. The CSM would more than likely asked you how you wanted to handle it - and offered his sage advice. You wrote: "I understand where I went wrong and if something like that happens again, I will be more prepared with having paperwork ready to escalate."
Each situation will be different; each action on your part will be different as well; try not to go armed for a Grizzly Bear when you may be dealing with a bunny.
I enlisted in the Navy in 1970 and then the Coast Guard in 1975. On the first of June I celebrated 23 years since my retirement as a CWO4. Today's military is a completely different animal from the one I joined 54 years ago. It is even different from the service when I retired in 2001.
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Physical punishments are for E-1's though E-4's they are young and dumb but don't normally deserve to have their just starting career derailed by being written up. But once a member takes on the oath and mantle of NCO the kid gloves come off. You tell them what you expect of them and what you need done. You don't hold their hands or cuddle them it's their job to figure out how to complete the task given to them not for you to tell them how to do it. As for the NCO in question there is never an excuse to disrespect senior NCOs to their face. If he refuses to accept verbal reprimand, was disrespectful and then insubordinate, then that's disciplinary action time. Thats time for LOC/LOR, and disrespecting the Lt as an Officer that's Article 15 territory, not forward leaning rest. He is not acting as an NCO so it's time to start the paper trail to remove that burden from him.
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WELL IN OUR FIELD ARTILLERY BATALLION WE HAD SECTION LEADERS SSG, SOMETIMES WITH AN E-5 SERGEANT, CHIELF OF SMOKE SFC, THEN OUR IST SERGEANT. WILL NOT MENTION OFFICERS BECAUSE MOST OF THEM WERE WORTHLESS, AND YET ALL OF US UNDERSTOOD CHAIN OF COMMAND, AND RESPESPECT FOR BOTH OFFICERS AND NCO'S. I SERVED IN THE SID/LATE 70'S, CLOSE TO POST VIETNAM WAR, AND ALL MY NCO'S IN BASIC/AIT WERE VETERANS OF THAT WAR, AND OR PLATOON RESPECTED BOTH OUR SSGT AND SERGEANT, BECAUSE THEY WERE STIKE SOLDIERS WHO NOT ONLY KNEW EVEYTHING WE NEEDED TO LEARN BUT ALSO COMMANDED I SUCH A WAY THAT THEY DESERVED BOTH OUR RESPECT AND ADMIRATION. MY DAUGHTERS BOYFRIEND WAS 82ND AIRBORNES AND STATIONED AT FORT BRAGG, AND HE SHARE THE SAME STORY ABOUT AN INSUBORDINATE GOT HIS WAY, AND EVEN THE 1SGT SAID LEAVE HIM ALONE. WE WHO WERE IN TH ERANK AND FILE DEALT WITH THOSE WHO WOULDN'T LEARN, NOT ONLY BECAUSE THEY DISAFFECTED OUR UNIT COHESION, BUT (AGAIN) SHOWED DISRESPECT FOR OUR LEADERS. THESE EVENTS SEEM TO BE TYPICAL NOWADAYS, AND IF IT CONTINUES IT WIL MAKE OUR MILITARY THE LAUGHING STOCK AMONGST THE NATIONS. I SAY GET THOSE WHO'RE OUT OF LINE BACK IN LINE OR KICK THEM THE HELL OUT. AREN'T THERE ARTICLE 15'S AND CORPS MARTIALS IN THIS MAN'S ARMY ANYMORE? IS SO, MAKE USE OF THEM BEFORE THIS NCO (E-5) TAKES OVER AS 1ST SERGEANT.
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As a Marine, I would not have believed this could happen. NCO's are the standard enlisted look to, in all services. I think you didn't escalate it too quickly, even for a reserve unit. In Uniform is In Uniform, and each and every rank needs live up to a standard set long before we joined. Be glad for his transfer and hope someone can set him on a more successful path.
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