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I am in the Army Reserve and this past weekend my unit and I went to the range. While at the range, I was told that one of my AGR E5 NCOs was being very disrespectful and unprofessional towards other NCOs and Officers while he was a range safety. Afterwards, my SFC supply sergeant asked him if he cleaned his weapon and he stated that he was not going to clean his MFing weapon. The SFC brought this to my attention and I said I would handle it. Later on, when I saw him again, I has him put away some items he was carrying and instructed him to bring his weapon while we walked to a secluded area. I had my LT platoon leader come with me. While I was doing this and trying to talk to him, he continuously interrupted me and was not treating me like his senior. I put him at the position of attention then told him to get in the front leaning rest position and he said he wasn't going to effing do that. I said great, let's go see the CSM. The CSM sided with him and said I escalated things too quickly (he said this with my E5 right there). He then said that he hold his AGR Soldiers at a higher standard than just a regular reservist. My brain was boiling... Doesn't take any consideration to my prior active time, my deployment, my rank, my leadership history.
I understand I might have escalated quickly but don't demean me in front my my Soldiers. I was going to have him in the front leaning rest while I calmly talk to him. I just wanted him to be uncomfortable while I explain what professionalism is and what the NCO Creed stands for and that I won't tolerate one of my NCOs disrespecting other NCOs or Officers.
Was I wrong in what I was doing? Am I too old school for today's Army? How could I have handled things differently? Now he probably thinks he is untouchable...
Update: So that individual got promoted and is awaiting transfer. He and I talked about what happened and he apologized for how he reacted. I just left it at that. I understand where I went wrong and if something like that happens again, I will be more prepared with having paperwork ready to escalate.
To give a little more insight on my unit, we are essentially the command part of a larger unit which we oversee. Similar to an HQ or HHC. It's hospital unit and we're the hospital center. Those of you who've been in a hospital unit, you probably understand the unique dynamic. With that being said, my position is basically the 1SG but with a squad sized element. My next higher up is the CSM, which is why I went to him instead of a 1SG.
I understand I might have escalated quickly but don't demean me in front my my Soldiers. I was going to have him in the front leaning rest while I calmly talk to him. I just wanted him to be uncomfortable while I explain what professionalism is and what the NCO Creed stands for and that I won't tolerate one of my NCOs disrespecting other NCOs or Officers.
Was I wrong in what I was doing? Am I too old school for today's Army? How could I have handled things differently? Now he probably thinks he is untouchable...
Update: So that individual got promoted and is awaiting transfer. He and I talked about what happened and he apologized for how he reacted. I just left it at that. I understand where I went wrong and if something like that happens again, I will be more prepared with having paperwork ready to escalate.
To give a little more insight on my unit, we are essentially the command part of a larger unit which we oversee. Similar to an HQ or HHC. It's hospital unit and we're the hospital center. Those of you who've been in a hospital unit, you probably understand the unique dynamic. With that being said, my position is basically the 1SG but with a squad sized element. My next higher up is the CSM, which is why I went to him instead of a 1SG.
Army Reserve Elements
NCOs
Leadership
Career Counselor
Career Advice
Edited >1 y ago
Posted 3 y ago
Responses: 173
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Whenever you're dealing with an insubordinate NCO, putting them in the front-leaning rest will not suffice and will only escalate matters. The only corrective action that works in these situations is having that insubordinate NCO sitting in front of you with you having a counseling form and an eyewitness present (preferably someone of equal rank or higher like the LT who has seen his actions). Also, instead of going to the CSM of your unit (who was an idiot, by the way), use your direct CoC which should have been your 1SG. The counseling statement is a record that can lead to an Article 15 for insubordination and be put in his permanent records, which will be seen at his next promotion board. These tools should or hopefully, recondition that NCO's attitude. Hope this works.
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I'm gonna say this that was AP. S command sergeant major it was all about his ego. It was all about him telling you what to do. He threw the rule books out the window. He threw whatever officer or NCO creed out the window. He went off of his chip on his shoulder. He went off of because I said so. And he was the unprofessional piece of trash. He was works 4 for chewing you out in front of your soldier. When his soldier is the one that dropped the ball, and not only that, his head was so far up as behind that, he didn't realize that that you were prior service, and that you had Your experience, unlike that reservist. Oh whoever the heck that was that don't know nothing. I was a reservist, too. You guys don't do a lot trust? I was a cook. I was there 1 week in a month, 2 weeks a year, and it wasn't rocket science, so that nco was wrong point blank period And no way he should have got promoted, but that's the way the army works.
Again, that command sergeant major garbage and I dealt with garbage leadership like that, while I was in for 11 years, I dealt with trash leadership 5NC OS in 11 years that actually gave a d*** about their soldiers. And actually we'll take a bullet for them. The rest Jaw jacking the rest wolf tickets.The rest egoa on the shoulders. always trying to chew you out. Always trying to get you in trouble. But when you go to family functions, you know exactly who's in charge and why and she'll show up to work all mad.
In short, you did nothing wrong. soup sammich csm.
Again, that command sergeant major garbage and I dealt with garbage leadership like that, while I was in for 11 years, I dealt with trash leadership 5NC OS in 11 years that actually gave a d*** about their soldiers. And actually we'll take a bullet for them. The rest Jaw jacking the rest wolf tickets.The rest egoa on the shoulders. always trying to chew you out. Always trying to get you in trouble. But when you go to family functions, you know exactly who's in charge and why and she'll show up to work all mad.
In short, you did nothing wrong. soup sammich csm.
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The described insubordination is unacceptable. I would have preferred charges. The CSM is completely out of line and needs to be removed of duties pending court-martial
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Well from the complete opposite side of the perspective you did nothing wrong, if anything you were probably too soft on them depending on how badly they were acting on the range.
Ive had every type of leader that exists. I’ve had sgt’s id have taken a bullet for, and I’ve had sgts that I would happily looked the other direction while they were getting killed. I had a 1sgt I’d have followed into hell. I had the wonderful opportunity to spend time with him after he was being reassigned and he was no longer my 1sgt. He said Thomson, I don’t think I have ever had a soldier who got in more trouble of his own making than you. I smiled and said that it was close between me and another man in my unit. He commented that I was strange to him because I never lied and never disrespected him ever, I said no matter how much trouble I ever got in, he never treated me unfairly. I earned every single moment of trouble and payed not one moment more than I deserved. He was fair always and never wavered. 1st Sgt Swaneir I believe was the best leader I’ve ever seen. I only wish that he knew me as other than a screw up.
My point is this, god forbid we are ever so bad that we need the nasty girls or weekend worriers in the real army, but if so, the soldiers under you will keep you safe and those under him will walk over him when he’s hurt.
Ive had every type of leader that exists. I’ve had sgt’s id have taken a bullet for, and I’ve had sgts that I would happily looked the other direction while they were getting killed. I had a 1sgt I’d have followed into hell. I had the wonderful opportunity to spend time with him after he was being reassigned and he was no longer my 1sgt. He said Thomson, I don’t think I have ever had a soldier who got in more trouble of his own making than you. I smiled and said that it was close between me and another man in my unit. He commented that I was strange to him because I never lied and never disrespected him ever, I said no matter how much trouble I ever got in, he never treated me unfairly. I earned every single moment of trouble and payed not one moment more than I deserved. He was fair always and never wavered. 1st Sgt Swaneir I believe was the best leader I’ve ever seen. I only wish that he knew me as other than a screw up.
My point is this, god forbid we are ever so bad that we need the nasty girls or weekend worriers in the real army, but if so, the soldiers under you will keep you safe and those under him will walk over him when he’s hurt.
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Lol, I'm laughing cause as a disabled veteran I have been unburden by what has been. Now I'm burden by the VA healthcare system getting their shit together
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I feel like this NCO should not have been disrespectful to an officer. The CSM should not have sided with the NCO on that. I am glad he apologized to you later. I have seen this before. Usually the leadership walk away and hash it out away from the squad. Tempers flare and people have off days. Situation like this takes judgement so no right or wrong way to deal with it. Lots of cards to play here if this continues.
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Good evening SSG (Join to see). Excellent post. Thank you for sharing this Brother Jason. I don't think you were in the wrong. I've seen this situation a few times before. Not necessarily when I was on actuve duty. Because any NCO thought twice in acting this way, but if it occurred then a SSG would have that SGT doing "cherry pickers" for 30 minutes straight. As far as in the AGR world this tends to occur. Now, as far as the TPU side I've never seen this occur. I recall I was in a TPU unit full of 68W's. If a situation were to occur at this said TPU, that SGT would be counseled by the PSG within this 1SG office and signing a negative counseling statement. Unfortunately, that particular SGT was out of line for his behavior and not really NCO worthy. He needs to read the NCO creed again. :-<
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Unfortunately this is typical of behaviors I noted many times in both the Reserves and the Nat Guard after 10 years of Active Duty.
There is always a small percentage of SMs that, despite having passed Basic and AIT, have a hard time adjusting to military life regardless of branch or component.
While Active Duty is.. or at least was, a very immersive experience and makes assimilation easier, the Reserve and NG components must continually struggle to maintain discipline and morale against the notion that these components are "just playing soldier on the weekends". This notion is very pervasive and even very senior leaders fall to it. This is often evident by the over familiarity and fraternization that happens in these components.
I once had a newly minted private call me by my first name not minutes after after being assigned to my gun section on his very first weekend drill. I took what I believed was appropriate corrective action, a thorough session of upper body exercise at full volume. It took about 20 seconds for all leadership above the paygrade of E7 to call me into the office and commence informing me as to how wrong was response was because this SM was the son (or grandson, I forget) of some former unit member.
The following day, I called the Personnel NCO at Brigade and requested information on how to begin my 20 year separation paperwork. I had had enough.
So, no. IMHO You were not wrong. You are not too 'old school'. The Reserve and NG components have always been a bit too lax and unfortunately, Active Duty is also going soft.
Fuck I miss the Cold War.
There is always a small percentage of SMs that, despite having passed Basic and AIT, have a hard time adjusting to military life regardless of branch or component.
While Active Duty is.. or at least was, a very immersive experience and makes assimilation easier, the Reserve and NG components must continually struggle to maintain discipline and morale against the notion that these components are "just playing soldier on the weekends". This notion is very pervasive and even very senior leaders fall to it. This is often evident by the over familiarity and fraternization that happens in these components.
I once had a newly minted private call me by my first name not minutes after after being assigned to my gun section on his very first weekend drill. I took what I believed was appropriate corrective action, a thorough session of upper body exercise at full volume. It took about 20 seconds for all leadership above the paygrade of E7 to call me into the office and commence informing me as to how wrong was response was because this SM was the son (or grandson, I forget) of some former unit member.
The following day, I called the Personnel NCO at Brigade and requested information on how to begin my 20 year separation paperwork. I had had enough.
So, no. IMHO You were not wrong. You are not too 'old school'. The Reserve and NG components have always been a bit too lax and unfortunately, Active Duty is also going soft.
Fuck I miss the Cold War.
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Like some have mentioned here already, you were not wrong at all. And your CSM is hot garbage. The power of the pen (counseling statement) is only as good as your chain of command willing to support your plan of corrective action, which should have been to recommend UCMJ action under Article 15. That piece of waste of government funding has no business being an NCO with an attitude like that. I would've had a field day with that write up. Any insubordination like that at a range (with live ammo) is a safety violation. I would've recommended a field grade art 15 for disrespecting you and the LT. I chaptered 32 pieces of crap out of the Army while in command, thanks to the support that I received from BDE Legal and my BDE CDR. With all the wokeness ideology poisoning our ranks, it's a different Army now. Continue to do the right thing. God speed.
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You was dead wrong in trying to put him in the front leaning rest position.
You should have put him in the parade rest position and then given him guidance in the proper maintenance of his weapon. If that failed, write up a counseling statement on the events that have occurred, have corrective measures noted. You would have recieve a better outcome. If you get into a shouting match, you already lost control
You should have put him in the parade rest position and then given him guidance in the proper maintenance of his weapon. If that failed, write up a counseling statement on the events that have occurred, have corrective measures noted. You would have recieve a better outcome. If you get into a shouting match, you already lost control
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