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I am in the Army Reserve and this past weekend my unit and I went to the range. While at the range, I was told that one of my AGR E5 NCOs was being very disrespectful and unprofessional towards other NCOs and Officers while he was a range safety. Afterwards, my SFC supply sergeant asked him if he cleaned his weapon and he stated that he was not going to clean his MFing weapon. The SFC brought this to my attention and I said I would handle it. Later on, when I saw him again, I has him put away some items he was carrying and instructed him to bring his weapon while we walked to a secluded area. I had my LT platoon leader come with me. While I was doing this and trying to talk to him, he continuously interrupted me and was not treating me like his senior. I put him at the position of attention then told him to get in the front leaning rest position and he said he wasn't going to effing do that. I said great, let's go see the CSM. The CSM sided with him and said I escalated things too quickly (he said this with my E5 right there). He then said that he hold his AGR Soldiers at a higher standard than just a regular reservist. My brain was boiling... Doesn't take any consideration to my prior active time, my deployment, my rank, my leadership history.
I understand I might have escalated quickly but don't demean me in front my my Soldiers. I was going to have him in the front leaning rest while I calmly talk to him. I just wanted him to be uncomfortable while I explain what professionalism is and what the NCO Creed stands for and that I won't tolerate one of my NCOs disrespecting other NCOs or Officers.
Was I wrong in what I was doing? Am I too old school for today's Army? How could I have handled things differently? Now he probably thinks he is untouchable...
Update: So that individual got promoted and is awaiting transfer. He and I talked about what happened and he apologized for how he reacted. I just left it at that. I understand where I went wrong and if something like that happens again, I will be more prepared with having paperwork ready to escalate.
To give a little more insight on my unit, we are essentially the command part of a larger unit which we oversee. Similar to an HQ or HHC. It's hospital unit and we're the hospital center. Those of you who've been in a hospital unit, you probably understand the unique dynamic. With that being said, my position is basically the 1SG but with a squad sized element. My next higher up is the CSM, which is why I went to him instead of a 1SG.
I understand I might have escalated quickly but don't demean me in front my my Soldiers. I was going to have him in the front leaning rest while I calmly talk to him. I just wanted him to be uncomfortable while I explain what professionalism is and what the NCO Creed stands for and that I won't tolerate one of my NCOs disrespecting other NCOs or Officers.
Was I wrong in what I was doing? Am I too old school for today's Army? How could I have handled things differently? Now he probably thinks he is untouchable...
Update: So that individual got promoted and is awaiting transfer. He and I talked about what happened and he apologized for how he reacted. I just left it at that. I understand where I went wrong and if something like that happens again, I will be more prepared with having paperwork ready to escalate.
To give a little more insight on my unit, we are essentially the command part of a larger unit which we oversee. Similar to an HQ or HHC. It's hospital unit and we're the hospital center. Those of you who've been in a hospital unit, you probably understand the unique dynamic. With that being said, my position is basically the 1SG but with a squad sized element. My next higher up is the CSM, which is why I went to him instead of a 1SG.
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Edited >1 y ago
Posted 3 y ago
Responses: 173
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This pisses me off to no end.
1 he was reported as being disrespectful to NCO and officers at the range, then he was disrespectful to the Senior NCO at the Arms room. Then he disrespected you in front of the officer. This was blatant disrespect. He was refusing corrective action.
If you locked him up at the position of attention and he continued to talk and be disrespectful, that would have been time to put pen to paper. (I would not have used the Front leaning rest position for this - that is used more for lower enlisted, not NCO's.)
The CSM in this situation is DEAD WRONG. The 1Sg's and CSM's are in charge if the discipline in the company and battalion. This CSM is failing in his duty to maintain that discipline - badly. If a soldier or NCO will act this way in peacetime, he will act this way in wartime.
Since this was so egregious I would have written him up with a counseling statement and recommended an article 15 (summarized at the minimum - personally I would be pushing for some rank to be lost as he is showing he is not deserving of that rank)
But then maybe I am an old school combat arms SFC that did not let my soldiers get away with that.
1 he was reported as being disrespectful to NCO and officers at the range, then he was disrespectful to the Senior NCO at the Arms room. Then he disrespected you in front of the officer. This was blatant disrespect. He was refusing corrective action.
If you locked him up at the position of attention and he continued to talk and be disrespectful, that would have been time to put pen to paper. (I would not have used the Front leaning rest position for this - that is used more for lower enlisted, not NCO's.)
The CSM in this situation is DEAD WRONG. The 1Sg's and CSM's are in charge if the discipline in the company and battalion. This CSM is failing in his duty to maintain that discipline - badly. If a soldier or NCO will act this way in peacetime, he will act this way in wartime.
Since this was so egregious I would have written him up with a counseling statement and recommended an article 15 (summarized at the minimum - personally I would be pushing for some rank to be lost as he is showing he is not deserving of that rank)
But then maybe I am an old school combat arms SFC that did not let my soldiers get away with that.
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SSG I worked in the weapons room alot in a Brigade if some one get a weapon out that person cleaned it a sgt cleaned a COL's weapon one time . I ask him you sent the weapon out he said no get the COL down here too clean this weapon an he came down an cleaded it too SOP.
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Seems like if you followed most up to date guidelines on escalation, by going straight to the paperwork route (counseling/ art 15) things would have been handled, possibly wouldn't have made it past promotion board due to negative paper trail and things would have been solved. Telling an adult to get on the ground so you can talk to him, even though he was in the wrong, just sounds like some Standford Prison experiment power trip. It's not effective, nor did let future leaders that may come across this individual that he's a shit bag. A paper trail does if people actually use it.
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All three of you are wrong. The E-5 either doesn't give a crap or he no longer wants to be in the Army. Either way, he needs to be released. As for you, an E6, you do outrank him but you are both NCO's. If two NCO's can't figure out a solution to such a mundane problem without their personal feelings getting in the way, our Military is screwed. As for the LT. I'm assuming he or she was a Butterbar. The LT should have stopped both your whining before it escalated.
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The work ethic is no where it used to be. According to federal and state laws you now have to cater to f___,, b-------,w ,,,,,,,, etc.
I'm glad I left when I did
I'm glad I left when I did
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My, my how the Army has changed! And NOT for the best! If that incident had occurred back in my day as his CSM he would have been given a choice of 1: Article 15 or, take this ass kicking I'm going to administer plus, do what you are told to do!
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I believe you did the right thing by having someone else with you when you approached the individual who was wrong for disrespecting anyone. The CSM was wrong in every way, and that individual should not have been promoted. The CSM owes you a huge apology.
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Absolutely you were not wrong. It sounds like the service member should not have even been in the military. I had to do a lot of things that I might not wanted to do, but in the military, I called it ODAA (other duties as assigned). That is just the way it was and hopefully still is. There are some in the military that are not cut out for service. For the good of the service, they should be discharged. If they did nothing wrong, incompatible, it should be honorable, (with some of the things listed in the problem above) he should have been discharged under other than honorable! Just my opinion. If you don't have cohesiveness, then you have troublecoming!
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As a Senior Platoon Leader, I generally would side with you. But since your CSM noted this behavior in front of the soldier, I would have told the CSM later that this decision grossly undercut yours. As an E7 or even MSG, you are leading those soldiers, and discipline is destroyed by him siding on behalf of the other. Even if he did side with that E5, it should have been between the two of you.
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