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I am in the Army Reserve and this past weekend my unit and I went to the range. While at the range, I was told that one of my AGR E5 NCOs was being very disrespectful and unprofessional towards other NCOs and Officers while he was a range safety. Afterwards, my SFC supply sergeant asked him if he cleaned his weapon and he stated that he was not going to clean his MFing weapon. The SFC brought this to my attention and I said I would handle it. Later on, when I saw him again, I has him put away some items he was carrying and instructed him to bring his weapon while we walked to a secluded area. I had my LT platoon leader come with me. While I was doing this and trying to talk to him, he continuously interrupted me and was not treating me like his senior. I put him at the position of attention then told him to get in the front leaning rest position and he said he wasn't going to effing do that. I said great, let's go see the CSM. The CSM sided with him and said I escalated things too quickly (he said this with my E5 right there). He then said that he hold his AGR Soldiers at a higher standard than just a regular reservist. My brain was boiling... Doesn't take any consideration to my prior active time, my deployment, my rank, my leadership history.
I understand I might have escalated quickly but don't demean me in front my my Soldiers. I was going to have him in the front leaning rest while I calmly talk to him. I just wanted him to be uncomfortable while I explain what professionalism is and what the NCO Creed stands for and that I won't tolerate one of my NCOs disrespecting other NCOs or Officers.
Was I wrong in what I was doing? Am I too old school for today's Army? How could I have handled things differently? Now he probably thinks he is untouchable...
Update: So that individual got promoted and is awaiting transfer. He and I talked about what happened and he apologized for how he reacted. I just left it at that. I understand where I went wrong and if something like that happens again, I will be more prepared with having paperwork ready to escalate.
To give a little more insight on my unit, we are essentially the command part of a larger unit which we oversee. Similar to an HQ or HHC. It's hospital unit and we're the hospital center. Those of you who've been in a hospital unit, you probably understand the unique dynamic. With that being said, my position is basically the 1SG but with a squad sized element. My next higher up is the CSM, which is why I went to him instead of a 1SG.
I understand I might have escalated quickly but don't demean me in front my my Soldiers. I was going to have him in the front leaning rest while I calmly talk to him. I just wanted him to be uncomfortable while I explain what professionalism is and what the NCO Creed stands for and that I won't tolerate one of my NCOs disrespecting other NCOs or Officers.
Was I wrong in what I was doing? Am I too old school for today's Army? How could I have handled things differently? Now he probably thinks he is untouchable...
Update: So that individual got promoted and is awaiting transfer. He and I talked about what happened and he apologized for how he reacted. I just left it at that. I understand where I went wrong and if something like that happens again, I will be more prepared with having paperwork ready to escalate.
To give a little more insight on my unit, we are essentially the command part of a larger unit which we oversee. Similar to an HQ or HHC. It's hospital unit and we're the hospital center. Those of you who've been in a hospital unit, you probably understand the unique dynamic. With that being said, my position is basically the 1SG but with a squad sized element. My next higher up is the CSM, which is why I went to him instead of a 1SG.
Army Reserve Elements
NCOs
Leadership
Career Counselor
Career Advice
Edited >1 y ago
Posted 3 y ago
Responses: 172
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As stated by SSG Gregg Mourizen below, if possible counsel him and and give him a counseling statement. He will get a COS NCOER because of the promotion and transfer; be sure to provide input to the rater ASAP, as SSG Mourizen did below. Be sure the counseling statement gets properly recorded in his records. If AGR's are held to a higher standard there, they shouldn't be, it's all the more reason he needs to clean his weapon to set the standard and provide the proper documentation for the unit Supply Sgt/Armorer so he/she doesn't fail a records inspection or evaluation from your higher HQ. All the GS 9-13 DAC Civilians in my units cleaned their individual weapons like anybody else. I would talk to your 1SG about what happened and how the CSM failed to back you up, he needs to stop that. But you have to know there is a lot of politics in the reserve program involving the full-time unit staff members, don't get caught in the middle; always CYA.
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I spent some time as an AGR soldier after my Active Duty time so I know all about this. The E5 was dead wrong, during ADT periods he is just another soldier like everybody else. Some AGR's get a power-tripping big head because they are on active duty. You and I know we have to lead by example, and he sure didn't do that. If his weapon was fired he needs to clean it. I would talk to your CDR privately and explain the situation, he needs to head off this soldier's ego before it bites him in the A$$. It doesn't matter if he is on active duty, he swore an oath to obey his general orders and all legal orders from those above him, any E6 and above. Make sure he cleans it before he transfers. Be sure to double-check the carbon buildup around the bolt face and barrel locking lugs.
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Jason I always told my Petty Officers that if there was a problem with someone of equal or lesser rank try to handle it. If that doesn't work go talk to the Chief Petty Officer for his advice/assistance. Senior to them - go talk to the Chief first. If it is an officer refer them to me and explain what the problem is.
That said - I think your approach was wrong. If the CSM is next in your chain of command why did you have the Platoon LT come with you? I don't think that was a wise decision nor was "ordering" him into the front leaning rest position. Those two actions in my opinion were way overboard. At least you followed the Praise in Public, Discipline in Private course. In reading the situation you posted yes you were wrong. A better way to handle it would be to seek the advice of the CSM before you took any action against the NCO. The CSM would more than likely asked you how you wanted to handle it - and offered his sage advice. You wrote: "I understand where I went wrong and if something like that happens again, I will be more prepared with having paperwork ready to escalate."
Each situation will be different; each action on your part will be different as well; try not to go armed for a Grizzly Bear when you may be dealing with a bunny.
I enlisted in the Navy in 1970 and then the Coast Guard in 1975. On the first of June I celebrated 23 years since my retirement as a CWO4. Today's military is a completely different animal from the one I joined 54 years ago. It is even different from the service when I retired in 2001.
That said - I think your approach was wrong. If the CSM is next in your chain of command why did you have the Platoon LT come with you? I don't think that was a wise decision nor was "ordering" him into the front leaning rest position. Those two actions in my opinion were way overboard. At least you followed the Praise in Public, Discipline in Private course. In reading the situation you posted yes you were wrong. A better way to handle it would be to seek the advice of the CSM before you took any action against the NCO. The CSM would more than likely asked you how you wanted to handle it - and offered his sage advice. You wrote: "I understand where I went wrong and if something like that happens again, I will be more prepared with having paperwork ready to escalate."
Each situation will be different; each action on your part will be different as well; try not to go armed for a Grizzly Bear when you may be dealing with a bunny.
I enlisted in the Navy in 1970 and then the Coast Guard in 1975. On the first of June I celebrated 23 years since my retirement as a CWO4. Today's military is a completely different animal from the one I joined 54 years ago. It is even different from the service when I retired in 2001.
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Physical punishments are for E-1's though E-4's they are young and dumb but don't normally deserve to have their just starting career derailed by being written up. But once a member takes on the oath and mantle of NCO the kid gloves come off. You tell them what you expect of them and what you need done. You don't hold their hands or cuddle them it's their job to figure out how to complete the task given to them not for you to tell them how to do it. As for the NCO in question there is never an excuse to disrespect senior NCOs to their face. If he refuses to accept verbal reprimand, was disrespectful and then insubordinate, then that's disciplinary action time. Thats time for LOC/LOR, and disrespecting the Lt as an Officer that's Article 15 territory, not forward leaning rest. He is not acting as an NCO so it's time to start the paper trail to remove that burden from him.
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WELL IN OUR FIELD ARTILLERY BATALLION WE HAD SECTION LEADERS SSG, SOMETIMES WITH AN E-5 SERGEANT, CHIELF OF SMOKE SFC, THEN OUR IST SERGEANT. WILL NOT MENTION OFFICERS BECAUSE MOST OF THEM WERE WORTHLESS, AND YET ALL OF US UNDERSTOOD CHAIN OF COMMAND, AND RESPESPECT FOR BOTH OFFICERS AND NCO'S. I SERVED IN THE SID/LATE 70'S, CLOSE TO POST VIETNAM WAR, AND ALL MY NCO'S IN BASIC/AIT WERE VETERANS OF THAT WAR, AND OR PLATOON RESPECTED BOTH OUR SSGT AND SERGEANT, BECAUSE THEY WERE STIKE SOLDIERS WHO NOT ONLY KNEW EVEYTHING WE NEEDED TO LEARN BUT ALSO COMMANDED I SUCH A WAY THAT THEY DESERVED BOTH OUR RESPECT AND ADMIRATION. MY DAUGHTERS BOYFRIEND WAS 82ND AIRBORNES AND STATIONED AT FORT BRAGG, AND HE SHARE THE SAME STORY ABOUT AN INSUBORDINATE GOT HIS WAY, AND EVEN THE 1SGT SAID LEAVE HIM ALONE. WE WHO WERE IN TH ERANK AND FILE DEALT WITH THOSE WHO WOULDN'T LEARN, NOT ONLY BECAUSE THEY DISAFFECTED OUR UNIT COHESION, BUT (AGAIN) SHOWED DISRESPECT FOR OUR LEADERS. THESE EVENTS SEEM TO BE TYPICAL NOWADAYS, AND IF IT CONTINUES IT WIL MAKE OUR MILITARY THE LAUGHING STOCK AMONGST THE NATIONS. I SAY GET THOSE WHO'RE OUT OF LINE BACK IN LINE OR KICK THEM THE HELL OUT. AREN'T THERE ARTICLE 15'S AND CORPS MARTIALS IN THIS MAN'S ARMY ANYMORE? IS SO, MAKE USE OF THEM BEFORE THIS NCO (E-5) TAKES OVER AS 1ST SERGEANT.
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As a Marine, I would not have believed this could happen. NCO's are the standard enlisted look to, in all services. I think you didn't escalate it too quickly, even for a reserve unit. In Uniform is In Uniform, and each and every rank needs live up to a standard set long before we joined. Be glad for his transfer and hope someone can set him on a more successful path.
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CMS was wrong. Range Safety rules Trump all othe consideration.
At the point CMS sounded off I would have subbbmitted request to see the lold man.
As a chef range officer you follow the safety rules you are off my range. Both cms and the trooper were WRONG.
At the point CMS sounded off I would have subbbmitted request to see the lold man.
As a chef range officer you follow the safety rules you are off my range. Both cms and the trooper were WRONG.
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I agree with CSM Eric Biggs & it also irritates me. However, to be honest, I have never agreed with dropping someone when you are attempting to counsel them on behavior. It smacks of giving punishment rather than coaching and counseling. However, that being said, when I was the Director of PNCOC in Hawaii, we would drop a soldier for all sorts of infractions. This was partially due to the need for physical fitness and not so much for counseling.
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You want "OLD SCHOOL" ....... I would have walked him to a quiet secluded area and critiqued/counseled him on his attitude and given him the opportunity to explain his actions. As he opened his mouth to explain....I would have punched his lights out followed by him signing a "counseling statement" that he realized his mistakes and would "never do it again" (and then I would tear up the statement) and send him off to clean his weapon (and mine)........JEEZE........What kind of "WOKE ARMY" are our tax $$$$ paying for. These recruits (REGARDLESS of active duty, reserve or national guard) need to learn discipline......not this namby pamby "counseling statement" and "time out" BULLSHIT ! These are similar to the actions we are seeing on college campuses in the past couple weeks.
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