Posted on Mar 28, 2014
SSG Retired
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At this time these events are considered public events and any one can watch them, however, my question is does anyone think that by making these events mandatory for the Soldiers in the unit to observe, either on a specific day or by substituting a training session for observance of this event, it would in any way deter criminal behavior in a unit?
Edited >1 y ago
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MAJ Samuel Weber
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Correct me if I am wrong, but it is my understanding that while Court Martials are open for viewing (depends on the severity of the charge) Article 15's are not. Unit's may post the results with names and key information blacked out. Every Article 15 reading that I have performed was done so in private with only the chain of command present and maybe the Soldier's first-line supervisor. Even night court was only conducted with the command teams present, since both the Company Commander's and 1SGs need to learn as much as possible about the process. Commander's needed the exposure since they possess the authority to "award Article 15s" and 1SGs attend so they can better understand the process when making recommendations to the commander. I have never "witnessed" an Article 15, even as a Company XO..... 
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SSG Retired
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The DA 2627 form consists of several blocks. Block 3, part B, question 1 asks whether the Soldier requests an open or closed hearing.  If the Soldier chooses to have the proceedings open to the public then anyone can be legally present unless the commanding officer determines that the proceedings should be closed for good cause. No special facility arrangements need to be made by the commander. Even if the accused does not wish the proceedings to be open to the public, the commander may open them anyway at his/her own discretion. In most cases, the commander will open them partially, and have present relevant members of the command (XO, first sergeant, supervisor, etc.)
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MAJ Samuel Weber
MAJ Samuel Weber
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That makes sense. Of course being an officer and a soon to be commander, I can envision what "Commander's Discretion" means. I guess the key is being able to justify your actions to the BC if a complaint was to be voiced.
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SFC James Baber
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SGT Riser,


My question to you is two part, isn't that already an option by the Soldier to have either a open or closed hearing, and 2ndly if it was open wouldn't you agree it could be a viable deterrent for others within the unit as to what could happen if they happen to go down that path.


On that note it was III Corps policy back in the 90s at Hood and all III Corps installations which included Sill that certain violations that required UCMJ or court-martial actions required open public hearings.


Prime example, there was a female SPC who was the leader of a local chapter of the Chicago Disciples street gang, they were doing extortion for hire, murder for hire, along with many other criminal activities, she was only a SPC, but had 15 SMs working for her on Hood conducting criminal enterprise activities in Killeen, Harker Heights, Copperas Cove and even Temple for over a year before the multitude of arrests took place. Her hearing was open to the public, and special reservations even had to be issued as so many people wanted to see the trial.


Now was this used for training or learning purposes, I guess that would be a personal determination by each individual that is affected or touched, I think it could have been as I don't recall anything even close to it ever occurring again.

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SSG Retired
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SFC Baber,

Yes it is an OPTION of the SM to have either an open door or a closed door reading. I do believe that it can be a deterrent to others in the unit, particulary for those that commit smaller infractions such as drug usage, drinking under age or failure to reports. My argument is that the current policy to merely put a redacted copy of the finalized proceedings on a board in public view is not deterent enough. I argue this because unless the Soldier is looking for a free condom hand-out, chances are they will not be going near that board for any other purpose. On the other hand, if a Soldier is forced to watch the proceedings first hand then perhaps they have the ability to take something from the impact of watching the proceedings and go about making smarter choices of themselves. 
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SFC James Baber
SFC James Baber
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I agree, but in the new PC environment, someone would accuse us of over-stepping our bounds and hazing the Soldiers by placing their hearings in the open as it would be disrespecting them and not allowing for their privacy, another current problem within the current standards of military conduct. My personal feelings on the matter as I was taught growing up within and through the military is that when you sign the dotted line, most of the normal rights you have on the civilian side don't exist as you are 1st and foremost government property that is trained and utilized for one thing to defend the country from enemies. This should also include if you screw up your business is public until you prove your innocence, because if you look at it from this aspect also, your accuser who could have been lying to begin with, they may have a sudden change of heart about their stories or accusations if they have to validate them in front of the public to include friends, co-workers and superiors. It could change the way many cases go if it is thin to begin with or it could also gain further credence once it is made public as well, double edged sword it could work both ways for defense or prosecution.
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SSG Retired
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SFC Baber,

I agree with your personal feelings regarding the dotted line and firmly believe that if you mess up than you should be put on display for others to learn from. Let's be honest - it is not like these incidents are secrets anyway. As soon as anyone in the unit does something questionable the rumor mill starts milling ridicluously. In some instances this may be a great reason for making this public. It may help to dispel the rumors of someone who simply misses a formation but turns into they missed the formation because they were sleeping on a street corner in downton such and such after inhaling a can of spray paint in the Home Depot parking lot after running down the sidewalk naked at 0230. 
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SFC James Baber
SFC James Baber
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Good analogy.


There have been many times during my career, especially in the MP arena that I have been involved in cases, that I was not privy to the evidence used during UCMJ proceedings based on what I know I collected or processed, and it is/was quite frustrating when I knew I did my job to the fullest and this SM walked because of a plead deal with the command or with the prosecuting attorney.


I will give you an example, I had a young trooper, he was actually one of mine who had been passing bad checks at the bank and PX, being his supervisor and also a being a V5 MP, I was allowed to conduct an indirect investigation and follow up with outside entities and it was blessed off by the crim-law COL, I went around from Killeen to Temple to Austin for over 4 months collecting bad checks, receipts, and letters from businesses and other personnel on this SM, I had to go to his storage facility to retrieve the government property (TA-50) before the storage unit was auctioned off, while doing this I discovered furniture that was purchased illegally and stored so as to not be found or taken back. During the investigation I discovered he had taken an entire pack of checks from a classmate while at AIT who was a reservist and didn't realize until it was thousands of dollars down the road. He lied to the CID investigators about where he got the checks, his claim was that he sold the guy a car and he was giving him twice monthly payments for it, he had been writing these checks for almost a years before anything cam from it, I blame the bank just as much as him for they kept depositing them into his account each time he brought them in and he would hit the ATM that night and next day and withdraw the money each and every time.


Anyways, I did all this leg work and with the CID info and lying to investigators and the dollar amounts, over $10000 of checks and merchandise, he was eligible for 45 years, he made a plea agreement with the JAG office for 7 months if he plead guilty, he was reduced to E1 sentenced to 7 months and would be discharged upon completion of time. The other shoe dropped when they took the 3 months we had him in CCF as partial time served because he was a flight risk before being tried because of past history, and since Hood only had a 90-day facility at the time, he was transferred to Lewis because they had a longer term facility. He also got out early for good behavior, and then turned around and tried to accuse me of stealing his personal belongings, which crim-law and JAG both backed me up, when I had to inventory his personal belongings along with supply for his barracks room, I found countless receipts and clothes and purchased items using bad checks still with tags on them, this was part of the evidence I used to get assistance from the business owners, I received permission from crim-law to return the items to the businesses, they were happy to at least get part of their money back and that is what got most to write the letters they did for the case. He had the nerve to say that I stole his stolen property, and that it didn't matter if he bought it with bad checks it was his property, the Army felt and decided otherwise and ruled in my favor.


Now I will admit I did do something at the time that was maybe overstepping my bounds, while he was in prison up at Lewis, his parents were coming to get his personal belongings which included his car, I knew for a fact that he had not paid his car note in 6 months, and the command had been contacted repeatedly, but at that time repo guys were not allowed to come on post to get vehicles set for repossession, that was way for Soldiers to keep their transportation, if they kept the vehicle on post it couldn't be taken. Myself and my PLT SGT at the time contacted the dealership and told them about this SMs conviction and that his family was coming to get his belongings to include the car and take it back home to California, and if that happened they would most likely never see that car again, we convinced the CDR to get PM approval for the dealer to send a tow truck to get the car as a repo, something that had to happen for one to occur, just couldn't come on post, they needed PM approval which was rare as the PM felt that the dealers needed to either work with the Soldier or get a judgment from a court, but they normally wouldn't let them come to get a car. The dealer came and got the car and the parents complained that they were planning to drive the car back to Cali, and we informed them that their son hadn't made a payment in 6 months so the dealership came and repossessed the car, it was beyond our control, they wanted to know how the dealer knew where to get the car and we played dumb.

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SFC William Swartz Jr
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Used to be that Art 15 results were posted on unit bulletin boards as well if I can remember back to when I got mine in late '88.....
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SFC Michael Hasbun
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Only once guilt has been officially determined. There's no point in besmirching the reputation of an innocent Soldier..
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SFC Michael Hasbun
SFC Michael Hasbun
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I don't mean it should be posted, I mean "form up the Battalion, have the person stand front and center, read the summary aloud, any demotions happen right then and there".
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SSG Retired
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Roger. They are posted but I am wondering if that's enough. I am suggesting that people should watch. It's easy to walk by a board and suffer from out-of-sight out-of-mind. Making them be present might be more effective. I have seen the practice at some units and the effects were interesting.
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SFC Michael Hasbun
SFC Michael Hasbun
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I remember First Marines used to do that when I was a jarhead. Any NJP that involved alcohol or NCO's always had an audience of about a dozen Marines, usually junior, so they can see the standard being applied to all ranks..
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MAJ Samuel Weber
MAJ Samuel Weber
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SGT Riser,


Commander's have to take into account due process and the right to privacy of the accused. While we do give up many of our constitutional rights we can take away the ones that apply to a fair and impartial hearing. I don't know if I would feel comfortable having an audience if I was administering an Article 15 to a Soldier. As a commander I would want my 1SG and the SMs 1st line in the room. Soldiers are allowed to call witnesses as well. For me to do my job I would need to be in a contained environment that would allow me to control the conversation an what was happening in that room. With a "mob" in attendance things could get out of control. Moans and cat calls during the reading could detracted from the commander's power base and degrade the entire proceeding. Legal is a sensitive subject for commanders and it is one of the few things that can get us fired on the spot.

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