Posted on Jun 23, 2017
What are your pet peeves regarding DA Form 4856 and 2166-8-1 counseling forms and sessions?
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As stated in my ATTN: Specialist blog, I used to tell all Soldiers to write in feedback on DA form 4856's before simply signing. I also rarely saw NCOER support forms.
Posted in these groups: 
Counseling
Professional Development
Leadership Development
Mentorship
Military Career
Counseling Professional Development Leadership Development Mentorship Military Career
Posted 8 y ago
Responses: 3
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I think that the sad part is that no one understands the importance that these documents can actually have. It seems like a check in the box for most people, subordinates and leaders alike. I know that I never once was given a support form; never once saw one used frankly. But month after month we all did our counselings just like we were supposed to do. Strangely enough, the effect that these documents can have is huge! I used to use counselings on everything, good and bad. The paper trail created used to be enough to put a guy through an article 15 if he was a shitbird, or get a guy to his E5 board if he was a superstar. I think that if they are used correctly they are a powerful tool, but many people in the army, NCOs is what I am speaking of mainly, don't have the finely tuned writing skills that they probably should and thus stray away from having to write. And Joe just wants to go home at the end of the day instead of having to read and sign a load of counselings.
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SGT Tiik Taaka
Yearly counseling is just part of being in the uniformed service. In the civilian world, annual counselings could mean a promotion, a raise or a flat line (no raise) but rarely used as a tool for dismissal.
Most NCOERS will be written by the owner for the sake of learning the ropes, improving writing skills and to add an inventory assessment of oneself. I reserve awards to be written by leadership and prefer to be red-lined by my leader on my yearly evals.
Counseling for improvement rarely is taken as a benefit. More than likely, it is just ammunition for the boot-gun. People end up where they end up but no leader should ever give up...that's not what we do.
Everyone is worth saving and that decision to give up should be made by the individual and even then, with permission (smile).
Most NCOERS will be written by the owner for the sake of learning the ropes, improving writing skills and to add an inventory assessment of oneself. I reserve awards to be written by leadership and prefer to be red-lined by my leader on my yearly evals.
Counseling for improvement rarely is taken as a benefit. More than likely, it is just ammunition for the boot-gun. People end up where they end up but no leader should ever give up...that's not what we do.
Everyone is worth saving and that decision to give up should be made by the individual and even then, with permission (smile).
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Technically the 4856 is supposed to be written during the counseling session. In reality it is written beforehand and while I always allowed room for discussion in professional growth counselings derogatory counseling is strictly by the bullet points. Of course there is the section where the soldier can add their comments. The rare good job counseling is something I also wrote up with no input from the soldier, but that is really just me saying good work and if you keep it up I'll recommend you for a waiver to the PSG and PL. The NCOER support counseling is something I've never received before. Only one of my NCOERs were even written by someone other than me. The only part that wasn't written by me were the senior rater portions and the check marks for how successful I was. One time the CSM red penned the NCOER I wrote for myself and my PSG handed it back to me and told me to rewrite it with the CSMs corrections.
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1SG (Join to see)
SGT (Join to see) - True, but I hadn't planned on it since I am neck deep in QC'ing NCOERs now lol.
That being said, I think that the way we teach our E4s and up fosters the cut and paste mentality. When I was being groomed to be an NCO, my squad leader handed me a stack of books and told me to learn them. Army Leadership, Leadership Counseling, Soldier Team Development, Battle Focused Training, etc. Lo and behold that's where the questions came from on my E5 Board because they wanted to see that I knew the tools to be successful before being placed in charge of troops.
In the modern era the school house just wants them to be able to "Control F." That's the reason I would rather have an NCO that lives the NCO Creed than one that can recite it from memory. We have to live and breath these principles, techniques and tactics. Blanket statements on developmental counselings and NCOERs is shameful, does a huge disservice to the Soldier and reflects poorly on the counselor/Rater. These tools should reflect the Soldier and the work that was put in (quantifiable & measureable where possible).
Given time constraints, it is only logical that a Soldier would come to the table with suggested input or talking points, especially for developmental counseling but both are supposed to be a collaborative process. That's not to say the senior person should expect the counselee to do all of the work...the information should supplement what is already there (fill in the holes, facilitate conversation).
That being said, I think that the way we teach our E4s and up fosters the cut and paste mentality. When I was being groomed to be an NCO, my squad leader handed me a stack of books and told me to learn them. Army Leadership, Leadership Counseling, Soldier Team Development, Battle Focused Training, etc. Lo and behold that's where the questions came from on my E5 Board because they wanted to see that I knew the tools to be successful before being placed in charge of troops.
In the modern era the school house just wants them to be able to "Control F." That's the reason I would rather have an NCO that lives the NCO Creed than one that can recite it from memory. We have to live and breath these principles, techniques and tactics. Blanket statements on developmental counselings and NCOERs is shameful, does a huge disservice to the Soldier and reflects poorly on the counselor/Rater. These tools should reflect the Soldier and the work that was put in (quantifiable & measureable where possible).
Given time constraints, it is only logical that a Soldier would come to the table with suggested input or talking points, especially for developmental counseling but both are supposed to be a collaborative process. That's not to say the senior person should expect the counselee to do all of the work...the information should supplement what is already there (fill in the holes, facilitate conversation).
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SGT (Join to see)
1SG (Join to see) - Thanks for the details. I will admit there was a lot of "Ctrl+F" in WLC. Luckily I'd already known many of the publications covered but that says little about the quality of the instruction. Did you see my blog post "ATTN: Specialist"? I'm curious how you'd critique it.
https://www.rallypoint.com/shared-links/attn-specialist-e-4
https://www.rallypoint.com/shared-links/attn-specialist-e-4
ATTN: Specialist (E-4) | RallyPoint
Continuing from ATTN: Privatehttps://www.rallypoint.com/shared-links/attn-private
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