Posted on Jun 12, 2016
What do you do when a soldier refuses to listen to your directions?
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This is a general question. If you have a soldier who refuses to listen to you, as a non-commissioned officer, do you simply put the incident on paper?
Example given- A soldier has unauthorized sunglasses on in a formation. You tell the soldier to take the sunglasses off. He/she refuses.
On the 4856, do you recommend for UCMJ? I've gone thru 600-20 and cannot find anything regarding this
Example given- A soldier has unauthorized sunglasses on in a formation. You tell the soldier to take the sunglasses off. He/she refuses.
On the 4856, do you recommend for UCMJ? I've gone thru 600-20 and cannot find anything regarding this
SGT
Squad Leader
Discipline
Team Leader
Posted >1 y ago
Responses: 770
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short timers were the worst a couple times in the motor pool I took them behind the tank and wrestled them to the ground ..I didnt care how big they were they were going down !!!
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Cpl Benjamin Long
and if the didn''t wrestle... if they stabbed you in self defense because you were assaulting them? that is an affirmative defense..
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Simple. Take his shades off for him. Tell him in order to get them back, he needs to have 500 words, single spaced, with no grammatical or spelling errors, on your desk at 0600 the next day. The subject is Article 91 of the UCMJ. What does it mean to me?
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MSG (Join to see)
SFC Glen Coberly , I truly do love giving essays. Not only is it to be 500 words, no errors of any kind, but also in pen and print (no cursive writing allowed).
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MCPO Kurt Stauff
And I would bet I could find spelling, grammar and punctuation errors on the first few pages.
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"Note: Only commanders are authorized to administer punishment as a result of due process. Leaders with general military authority are not authorized to punish, but can administer counseling or conduct corrective training. If a Soldier perceives that he/she is being punished, you may have overstepped your authority and may be subject to disciplinary action. An example of what is not corrective training is; “PVT Joe, you were late for formation, so you will do 500 push-ups starting at 1800.” TC 7-22.7 "Ensuring the proper conduct of Soldiers is a function of command"
To answer your question No do not recommend ucmj that is for the commander. And if that is what you want do no corrective action. THink about it this way,... When PVT snuffy gets read the article 15 from the commander he gets to seek legal counsel, if that lawyer can review and find any loopholes in the case like improper authority was exercised or the plan of action constituted punishment the case can be thrown out and your commander won't be able to do anything further. A good rule of thumb is to write a counseling just describing the facts and ask for review from 1SG before you give it to the soldier.
To answer your question No do not recommend ucmj that is for the commander. And if that is what you want do no corrective action. THink about it this way,... When PVT snuffy gets read the article 15 from the commander he gets to seek legal counsel, if that lawyer can review and find any loopholes in the case like improper authority was exercised or the plan of action constituted punishment the case can be thrown out and your commander won't be able to do anything further. A good rule of thumb is to write a counseling just describing the facts and ask for review from 1SG before you give it to the soldier.
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Cpl Benjamin Long
Under Section III of the US Constitution the Court is granted the Power to interpret any law under it, including Title 10 and the UCMJ... Thus the ultimate definition of a Punishment would be by the JAG and by extension the Armed Forces Appellate Courts and the US Supreme Court
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Cpl Benjamin Long
And as SSGT Fulton pointed out... Commanders cannot influence punishments of on going court cases.... if they do then that is "unlawful command influence" there was a case a few years ago involving sexual abuse and the JAG had to drop it because Obama made a comment about punishment in regards to the case.... to which as a commander he had no right to influence....
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SSgt Thorin Palladino
Basic rule of thumb: If it is after normal duty hours it is punishment. If it is during normal duty hours it is training.
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SSG Robert White
The is a saying their is the right way, the wrong way and then the service way. Some people would also say the unit way. When it comes to UCMJ, only the RIGHT way is the correct way. Rules of thumb are the wrong way. If you had a IG inspection and took short cuts all the time (service/unit way), you would be re doing every piece of paperwork to ensure it complies with the regulation. So why not do it the right way ALL the time.
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Having been team leader plenty, I have actually had to deal with a soldier like this. Because I am an E4 he thought he didn't have to listen to me when I told him to do something, which was told to me by the squad leader.
He was a brand new private. The first time he talked back I pulled him aside and talked with him. He straightened up for the remainder of the training day, till the end of the day. We were tasked with cleaning the armory and such. I put out what our team needed to do and went about showing them and helping out. I was called away for something, on my return I see the new private hanging out with his buddies. I ask him what he's doing and tell him to get back to work, he says, "there is nothing to do. They got it" his friends standing in agreement (all E1-E2s) so I pulled him out back for a talk and we did some PT till I was tired, which was far after he was. To check myself I had an actual E5 come out with me so no one got butt hurt about an E4 team leader smoking someone.
So in other words, instill discipline and don't let them think they can do things like that. Never had a problem with him again.
He was a brand new private. The first time he talked back I pulled him aside and talked with him. He straightened up for the remainder of the training day, till the end of the day. We were tasked with cleaning the armory and such. I put out what our team needed to do and went about showing them and helping out. I was called away for something, on my return I see the new private hanging out with his buddies. I ask him what he's doing and tell him to get back to work, he says, "there is nothing to do. They got it" his friends standing in agreement (all E1-E2s) so I pulled him out back for a talk and we did some PT till I was tired, which was far after he was. To check myself I had an actual E5 come out with me so no one got butt hurt about an E4 team leader smoking someone.
So in other words, instill discipline and don't let them think they can do things like that. Never had a problem with him again.
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1LT William Clardy
The first step for getting soldiers to obey your orders is to make sure that you believe your orders should be obeyed, SPC (Join to see).
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1LT William Clardy
It's surprising how many junior NCOs have problems because of that lack of confidence, Capt Michael Greene.
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CPT Earl George
If you are an officer, back your NCO's. If you are extremely good, you know whether they will handle the problem or refer it to you. You will also get to know quickly, the ones who want to refer everything to you. I consider the Article 15 as a last resort. Have I used it ? Yes, when I thought it fit the circumstances. (Isn't that why the CO makes the big bucks.)
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Wait until the formation is over then have a one-on-one conversation with that Soldier.
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1LT William Clardy
Capt Michael Greene, I disagree about how the other soldiers will view "having a conversation" -- depending upon the results of the conversation, they are just as likely to conclude that you remained unflappable in the face of a direct challenge to your authority. As long as the direct outcome is not a win for the challenger (and there are many ways a good NCO can make it a clear loss by creatively redefining the conflict), then you get reputation points for being the "never loses his cool and never loses an argument" sergeant.
MSG Mike Fitzpatrick, because the soldier made a public challenge to the sergeant's authority, this is scenario is a partial exception to the "praise in public, punish in private" rule. The sergeant *has* to be *seen* effectively reasserting his authority -- the rest of any interaction can be done in private, but the rest of the squad has to witness the soldier ultimately yielding to the sergeant's authority, even if it is something as trivial as having the soldier stand in a "formation of one" until the regular formation is dismissed.
MSG Mike Fitzpatrick, because the soldier made a public challenge to the sergeant's authority, this is scenario is a partial exception to the "praise in public, punish in private" rule. The sergeant *has* to be *seen* effectively reasserting his authority -- the rest of any interaction can be done in private, but the rest of the squad has to witness the soldier ultimately yielding to the sergeant's authority, even if it is something as trivial as having the soldier stand in a "formation of one" until the regular formation is dismissed.
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Capt Michael Greene
"The sergeant *has* to be *seen* effectively reasserting his authority -- the rest of any interaction can be done in private, but the rest of the squad has to witness the soldier ultimately yielding to the sergeant's authority, "
We agree. 1LT William Clardy
We agree. 1LT William Clardy
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SFC(P) (Join to see)
MSG Mike Fitzpatrick - 1SG as I'm sure you know there is more than one way to have a conversation.
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SSG (Join to see),1LT William Clardy makes a very good point which should be taken to heart by every NCO and officer: unless you are a Chuck Norris-type martial arts expert, you would be well advised to resist the temptation to take immediate physical action of some sort in a case like this. It may not be of much consolation if the offending trooper gets courts martialed and a BCD if you have to deal with an indignity such as described. Better to refer the matter to NCOs for immediate action such as removing the individual or find out the individual's unit asap and report him straight away. It would take a very reckless trooper to defy a direct order under any circumstances, esp while on base, and they did feel so bold, they may also be ready to follow through with violent actions.
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Cpl Benjamin Long
1LT William Clardy - that's why you don't get into fights.... you can't guarantee a victory in the courtroom...
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1LT William Clardy
My technique for winning bar fights is to not be in the bar when a fight breaks out, Cpl Benjamin Long, but sometimes you don't get a say.
This time, it was the soldier who felt especially froggy that day, thinking that he wouldn't face any serious disciplinary action because he was a double-digit midget counting down to his ETS. So that previously fine morning, SP4 F. did the math and decided that the anticipated cost of taking a swing at me was worth it, catching me off-guard (as my section sergeant, who could hear the exchange, put it, it sounded like just all the other times the specialist had challenged my authority until they heard the punch land). Ironically, the way things turned out, you could say he got rewarded by getting extended a for a few weeks of light duty followed by a court-martial which cost him nothing.
This time, it was the soldier who felt especially froggy that day, thinking that he wouldn't face any serious disciplinary action because he was a double-digit midget counting down to his ETS. So that previously fine morning, SP4 F. did the math and decided that the anticipated cost of taking a swing at me was worth it, catching me off-guard (as my section sergeant, who could hear the exchange, put it, it sounded like just all the other times the specialist had challenged my authority until they heard the punch land). Ironically, the way things turned out, you could say he got rewarded by getting extended a for a few weeks of light duty followed by a court-martial which cost him nothing.
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Cpl Benjamin Long
1LT William Clardy - so he had nothing to lose, you have to watch out for that... People who think like that will kill with impunity because consequence means nothing to them
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1LT William Clardy
Yeah, Cpl Benjamin Long. Chalk that one up as a painful lesson I learned long ago.
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No, I would confiscate the glasses, and let him, or her know they could have the m at the end of the day, a/and then bring them up on report.
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If they are unauthorized, counsel for being in violation of ar 670-1. If they say no to a lawful order, article 86. Simple enough. Or just take to wood line, and make them work off that bad decision
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SPC John Lebiecki
I liked your first statement. Counseling number 1- Violation of AR 670-1. Counseling Number 2- Failure to Follow orders.
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Since it is in a public forum and there is no doubt of witnesses, I would proceed by stating "Pvt X, I have given you a lawful directive. As you are refusing to comply, I am confiscating the contraband, and I am directing you to report to me in the Company CQ office following formation". At that time I would counsel them, and should they continue to be insubordinate I would utilize my chain of command, up to and including the 1SG.
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SSG Robert White
I would tell the individual to turn them over to me. If not, as report by 1SG Fairchild, have him report to your office. Counsel the soldier, it the problem continues, walk it up the chain-of-command with documentation at every step. When UCMJ is warranted, everything will be documented and by the book.
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