What do you do when a soldier refuses to listen to your directions?

MSG Kerry Edwards you're right there.

CPT Carlos Ribadeneira you're right there sir.

Cpl Dan A. Amen brother

Cpl Benjamin Long It may be illegal now by today's standards, but before snowflakes were allowed in the military, that was the best corrective action.

Cpl Benjamin Long - Funny thing is this whole conversation is about property and disobeying an order.

I'm not sure where the Article 138 came up in this... however, Article 138 is a VERY POWERFUL tool that as mentioned, Commands don't want Soldiers to mess with. Once an REAL Article 138 has been filed, it stays with the Commander forever regardless of its outcome. Which is why there is a strict procedure for starting one.

Even if they are prescription glasses, the army issues and covers the cost of prescription glasses to include sunglasses. With specifics in uniform regulations, unless the unit command somehow authorizes certain sunglasses, his ass is grass and the NCO is the lawn mower.

Stomp dat ass until you made a mud hole

1LT William Clardy - I found that the judicious introduction of personal anger was sometimes an effective way to focus a person's attention--in selected cases. If you are calmly droning on doing a counseling session, some offenders won't take you seriously. In some cases, a little emotional shock helps fire the neurons that will place the lesson learned firmly in long-term memory.

I didn't say that making your anger or disgust apparent was wrong, Capt Michael Greene, but that explicitly bringing it into the conversation as a factor weakens the corrective value of the butt-chewing (and correction is the only legitimate reason for chewing him out). This is a nuance very similar to the rationale behind the "target the action, not the actor" standard -- if you want to soldier to internalize the value of acting correctly, you have to make clear that he is being judged by an objective performance standard (which he can meet if he chooses) rather than a potentially whimsical personality clash he has limited control over. Otherwise, he would be perfectly justified in concluding that your exercise of authority was really more about you exploiting an opportunity to abuse someone you didn't like than him doing anything terribly wrong.

SCPO Ronald Riml - If he won't remove them on verbal command, then physically snatching them off his face might lead to a physical fist fight--which would certainly be emotionally satisfying, but not conducive to good order.

Maybe I am retired now for too many years, but one quick question. If you remove the sunglasses from him does that not leave you open for a charge of assault? Maybe no but that is what I would be asking.

Yeah punish everyone that wasn't involved. Cause that works

Not sure, I always found that mass punishment worked, Because then the spcs would take care of the problem. Because nothing i hated more than having to do mass punishment. but we made sure the soldier that caused the action knew why later and regretted it. not even physical there are other ways to get point across.

SSgt Thorin Palladino - I agree with your last sentence, but:

In basic (1972 to put it in proper perspective) we were always given mass punishment in order to teach us team work. I can remember carrying 8 rifles including my own, for other soldiers who could not keep up with the run out to the rifle ranges @ Ft. Dix, NJ. If a soldier could not keep up the Drill Sgt. had the platoon do dbl time around the soldier while he rested. There was no animosity to the "fall out" or the Drill Sgt for that matter - it taught us the meaning of team work. Help those who were not able to keep up and "The Whole" benefited.

What if you are wrong? I'll give you a real life example: a barracks inspection turned up a gun stashed in a drop-ceiling in the hallway. Just so happens, the ceiling was right outside my barracks room door. My room mates and I were questioned by NIS. Their logic was it was accessible from our room if we removed grate above our door. Forget the obvious fact is was accessible to anyone in the hallway as well by just lifting the ceiling tile; a point which was conceded by NIS when I pointed out this obvious fact. The barracks was put on restriction until someone confessed to owning the gun. Somehow the confidential interview with the occupants of my room came to the attention of everyone in the barracks, and we started getting veiled threats. Two weeks or so into the restriction, it was inexplicably lifted. Turns out another Marine who lived in the room next to ours had heard of the barracks sweep 10 minutes prior and had tossed his gun up there. He was conveniently transferring out that week and sure wasn't fessing up. He left and we took the heat. It took at least as long for word to get out that we had nothing to do with it. Our barracks Sergeant didn't make any kind of announcement that we were not involved because of 'ongoing investigation', which seems odd because everybody somehow knew where the gun was found during said 'ongoing investigation'. Made for a very uncomfortable experience. Fortunately nobody decided we needed extra-judicial punishment.

Has time and leadership changed! When a subordinate openly challenged me or my fellow shipmates with something as trivial as this, he would certainly pay a dear price! In the military you can't put up with disrespect at any level in the chain of command hierarchy! What a waste of time and it shows this command really has a discipline and leadership problem!

Take your blouse off warrior we are going for a little run and commenced to running that soldier into the ground

Your recommending punishment. This isn't your call. You too are as guilty as the offending individual. Everyone is at attention and this is were he/she needs to be. Take off the glasses and have the individual provide you with a letter from the doctor to say the glasses are necessary. If not, advise the individual of what will happen next time, mean while you document the incident in a counseling statement. It it's repeated, then walk it up the chain of command.

SSG Robert White - I agree, unlawful command influence will throw any case

Capt Michael Greene - Cpt, on the whole I would want to agree with you, but I also note that my own experience evidenced with my own eyes, I had a new SFC (granted in the Guard that had just transitioned into instant Infantry) talking about something, of which I forget now, that was like a huge revelation to him, and I was thinking to myself at the time "Damn, I knew that answer when I was a SPC4, you just now figured that out?" Another one was very recently, of lack of respect for those who went before, When we dealt with someone who was out of the Service who had been in the same unit, you just rolled with things because (A) they might know something about the unit history that you do not, (B) they might be forgetful (their time was long ago after all) and (C) you NEVER cut your buddy in the back EVER. If they are in the wrong, you one on one with them, but you do not throw a temper tantrum about things especially in a public area. It only diminishes the respect that people around you have.

As I was discussing the other day with someone, to explain to them the Major difference between local law enforcement and MP's, the law is the law yes, but the MP is charged above all with insuring (as someone else pointed out earlier) "Good Order and Discipline". Which to me means there is a time and place for almost every type of disciplinary action. The problem is that sometimes we as leaders my guess wrong, but it also means that sometimes what may look wrong to us is that we are not closely involved to the situation that we see something that looks wrong but we do not have the facts to correct someone else who IS closely involved, or has more background info that we do not looking from the outside in. I have had several NCO's (and officers) who were complete A holes and very rough on people, but we had mad respect for them to look out for the maximum number of troops possible. What this meant to me was that I had absolute trust in that person that it was not for a vindictive reason that I may get choose to be stay behind to just die, it was because he trusted me to do everything I possibly could to delay the enemy to buy time to save what COULD be saved. (yes it was a training scenario, but you train for defeat as well as for victory as well)

So, to wrap things up Capt, I see a lower level of respect today in the eyes of our young soldiers than when I was in, as I had stated in another post of mine, our service is a reflection of our society of the day, and I am no longer really suprised, saddened, but not suprised.

I gave the impression of a temper tantrum when that was absolutely not the case. I wrote a lengthy reply, but lost it. I guess I better reconstruct that post this afternoon.

and you are the type a SGT that has no control beyond baseless threats, to the point where to assert your authority means breaking the law.. your troops are not idiots and the law is on their side the moment you break it...

SGT Eric Knutson - I completely agree with your statement here! Very well written!

Cpl Benjamin Long - I think I mentioned a special CM. That can convey a felony.

Long is what is wrong with the military

PO1 Robert Lee - thank you for your immaterial response... I suppose you are going to blame me for evil next, "Thank you kind sir, may I have another lash"

Go tell the NCO of the formation next to yours and tell him that you love him more than me

nice that would work as well Semper FI.

I like your thinking. I had a CO that made it very clear that only he could give out any punishment. I always noticed that anyone going to Captains Mast went to XO's inquiry first and the XO would often offer punishment in lieu of going to see the CO. So I decided that I had the same authority. I gave the sailors under me the same choice, they could take my punishment or they could go see the CO, they always took my punishment and I was twice as hard on them as the CO.

Extremely effective. I even do this with my high school students today. Alright Johnny, you have chosen to do 'x' in violation of our class rules. You now have a choice: A) accept my solution B) get written up officially and sent to the office. 99.9% of the time they choose option A. Students that talk get the "listening position" pushup position, all the way down, come half way up and hold that while I lecture. Of course I am next to them lecturing in the pushup position. I'm 54 and can outlast almost all of my students.

CPO Michael Butler - If it got to the point that a soldier wound up in front of my desk, that individual was not about to forget " THE EXPERIENCE"

SSG Robert White - There was not even a mention of assault SSG , he is fabricating a false stand point of the structure of being squared away and in proper military attire and approved gear and or eye wear etc ...

SSG Robert White - First, Sgt., I never achieved the rank of Sgt. before being severely injured and rendered paralyzed for life. Nevertheless, really that is irrelevant to the topic but still I don't want to take away from guys like you that earned your additional stripe. I know the Marine Corps is significantly different than many other branches of the military and/or even different units within those branches. As a young Lance Corporal, when I got out of line, the NCOs would usually muster in the barracks and have me report... I remember entering the barracks once and they were all standing around waiting for me, I immediately knew what this meeting was all about. First, they reprimanded me for walking around like I was the shit because I just got back from the Gulf and not listening to any of my NCOs. Shortly thereafter, they reinforced everything they told me, by putting me through the gauntlet, where each of them got there licks. Afterwards, they never had to "Counsel" me again. I don't look at this counseling session as a negative moment in my life, on the contrary, I believe it was positive. I finally pulled my head out of my ass. The military is different than the civilian world. You must teach a subordinate very quickly or men and women will die. If you have someone that's acting insubordinate, I find nothing wrong with knocking him upside the head and telling him to unfuck himself in a hurry or you can get the entire platoon on their faces to do pushups all day, while Private Shmucktely, counts off. However, you know later, the whole platoon is going to give Shmucktely a blanket party. Now if that doesn't fix your problems child, at least, it will lead to some Unit cohesion. I don't advocate assault, nor, do I enjoy abusing my power. However, when you are squared away and train regularly, you are more likely to bring all of your men back from deployment. Long is trying to lecturer me about assault, yet, again the military and civilian world are completely different places and insubordination will get people killed. Of course you don't resort to violence immediately and it should be a last resort. However, an NCO shouldn't need to tell a subordinate the same thing over and over. These are grown men that took an oath to defend their country. The military isn't a democracy. Now I had the Co. Gunny put his foot up my ass a few times but I know I am a better man for it. Again, I believe Sgt. Smith pointed out we are not in the Salvation Army or Boy Scouts, as I really believe Long was in. I would never write a charge sheet because many individuals in the military have families of their own or they grew up poor and often send money home, charge sheets don't just punish your subordinate but they punish their entire family, it takes food out of their children's mouth. Believe me, I wasn't heartless. A good old fashion ass kicking goes a long way and it doesn't take money away from the Private's family That is all... Dismissed.

Cpl Chris Woodford - You're an idiot. My grammar wasn't off. I was missing the word "have". The other reason you're an idiot. I was on a liberty boat that was all Navy minus two Marines. The two Marines were throwing up because they couldn't hold their alcohol. You must be a little child who can't hold his alcohol. Now obviously what I just said was retarded. I can't base any Marine I disagree with on two pathetic examples of Marines I once encountered. I figured I would show you why your comment was faulty though. If I hadn't used a faulty example to paint you, you would never have realized your mistake. Chances are you still don't realize your mistake and I'm not really surprised.

PO2 Joseph Fast - You need to look up the word "grammar". You also need to learn simple mathematics... I believe you meant, "It was all Navy, plus (or in addition to) two Marines. Moreover, you are retarded when you need to resort to calling someone retarded. Lol. I completely understand your argument, however, I wasn't basing my viewpoint on what I only saw on the Iwo Jima but what I encountered within the 5th Fleet. You fellows get tired of serving aboard a ship and start sucking cock. The Iwo in my day, was an LPH and all homos had to pass by way of it to get a ride home, as homosexuals were prohibited from serving in the military. However, don't get upset... transgendered are now allowed to serve openly. Soon you can have your vagina turned into a cock. Finally, the fact you are a PO2 in the Navy tells me plenty... you're dumb, lazy and soft.

Davis, can you believe this clown above was actually a Marine? I can't recall a time when the Co. Gunny wasn't putting his boot up someone's ass. Apparently, he is either a barracks attorney, a jailhouse attorney and/or a 1st year law student. Lol. Apparently, he wrote a book about overthrowing the government and society, offering no quarter for anyone but has cried about every individual who would have resorted to simple assault. For some reason, he thinks it's a huge ordeal but many judges are prior military and/or had parents that served in the military, and they believe a good old fashion ass kicking would prevent many of the problems they see every single day in their courtroom. The first judge I was a prosecutor before was a Marine Corps M60 machine gunner. Furthermore, this judge would often tell me after court, if so & so had a strong parent figure that would have given them a swift kick in the ass, they probably wouldn't be in court every single week.

This isn't the eighties. Stuff that flew then will get you a Big Chicken Dinner today.

That's patently false. Professional Marine NCOs would document the violation and let the Company or Battalion Commander make a judgment, and set a penalty as permitted in the Uniform Code of Military Justice. Later, we'd make him run, and run, and run, and run.

I retired in 2002, but trust me those sunglasses would never be seen again, let alone on his head. I'm gonna make life a lil hard for you ie, you digging that fighting hole, you catching Saturday duty, you getting fapped to another unit to live in the bush for a for weeks, ooh you'd learn to obey my NCO's before it got to me. If necessary I'd jack you up myself.