Posted on Jun 12, 2016
SSG Emergency Action Controller / Ops Nco
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This is a general question. If you have a soldier who refuses to listen to you, as a non-commissioned officer, do you simply put the incident on paper?

Example given- A soldier has unauthorized sunglasses on in a formation. You tell the soldier to take the sunglasses off. He/she refuses.


On the 4856, do you recommend for UCMJ? I've gone thru 600-20 and cannot find anything regarding this
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SPC LaVerne Hatch
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AR 670-1 Is a nonpunitive regulation. The trick is to verbally counsel the soldier, notifying them the sunglasses are not within compliance with AR 670-1, how they are not in compliance, what is within compliance, and that they are required to remove the sunglasses immidently.
If at that point the soldier fails to remove the glasses it is a violation of Article 92. If the soldier shows contempt and/or disrespect (other than failing to obey the removal of the sunglasses) it is an additional charge of 91.
No counseling is required, a simple sworn statement - DA Form 2823 is enough for this kind of situation.

For violations of the UCMJ look up a digital MCM.
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1SG William Wayne
1SG William Wayne
>1 y
What the hell happened to the Army. Failure to follow instructions!!!!! There is no counseling and mentoring here. If the Plt is told to ground their gear, shirts jackets what ever and your refuse why should i have a 20 min conversation on why you should follow the order. Take some time and money off this joker. He will be the first guy to want a 20 min conversation when you kick in a door. Get rid of him
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SPC LaVerne Hatch
SPC LaVerne Hatch
>1 y
1SG,
I understand where you are coming from. I was simply indicating from a legal stand point what would the legal recourse to the situation. A lawful order from a first line leader is a order is just as lawful as if it came from the CG himself/herself. But there are regulations, such as AR 670-1, that in their own right if you came upon a soldier failing to obey them it is not illegal until they are told "order" to do otherwise.
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SGT Infantryman
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Get animated! Provoke him verbally so that when he assaults you, it's self defense as you beat his ass.
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SGM Nathan Thomas
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Edited >1 y ago
First I would let the soldier know that they are in violation of ART 92. Then I would document it in a counseling session, and then I would give him some additional training that was related to the infraction. I myself believed in additional training more than Art 15. I believed in taking time and have something that was related, so the soldier learned as well. Now if this is more than a one time thing and it seems I am not getting through, then I put them in for UCMJ action. I always told my troops when this happens it means I have basically given up on you and going to help you get back on the block or jail time. The ball is now in your court to prove you want to stay. Now I have said all that assuming you know the soldier and are aware of what is going on in their life in case this is not a usual act. The main thing though is you will have to maintain good order and discipline.
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A1C Aerospace Medical Technician
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The problem with today's military is command is so quick to jump to paperwork. This paperwork will follow him for the rest of his career and will stop him from advancing once he has matured and grown into a proper soldier. Saying no to an order is certainly grounds for paperwork I understand that, but in 8-10 years when he's trying to put on E-5 or even E-6 he won't be able to because he didn't take off his sunglasses? That seems harsh. Physical punishment should have been administered, a minute or two pushing dirt might have woken him up to his insubordination. Paperwork should be a last resort and for serious matters, instead of being passed out like it's candy.
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SSG Elizabeth Koss
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Alright...some great answers below...some not so great...so here from your friendly JAG NCO here...your best bet is to start getting the crap on paper (paper trails are your friend). Yes, you can recommend the Soldier for UCMJ, but if he is flat out refusing to listen to you over and over again, it is better to document it all. If after the third counseling, PVT Snuffy still does not want to change his evil ways, you may want to talk to your commander about an Article 15, showing him your documentation in that process so he/she can see what you are talking about.

Make sure that with those counselings, you are including the magic bullet statement at the end so that they know if their conduct continues, they can be punished under the UCMJ or even separated from the military.
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GySgt Kent Murray
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First, I don't know what I would do, as I would be so Pissed. So here is what I would of done, I would had him step out of formation , take him behind it, and stand at attention and I would have a very strong discussion. If he refuses still, I would charge him Article 91 or 92 I think, failure to obey a lawful order

Also depending on your unit, culture, etc.. maybe a 1 on 1 talk behind close doors -hint! I used to have me and my fire team leaders and we would have a 1 on 1 discussion.

Also, there is the 2016 approach - Sit down and find out why he feels he doesn't have to take them off, etc..

I would say the 2016 approach also is charge him and be done.

Best of luck
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TSgt Brian Barbour
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Immediate, on the spot corrective action would be the first step. Re-issuing the directive to remove his sunglasses in a loud but professional manner, and then immediately taking it up the chain (if you are in formation as a Sergeant some or most of your immediate chain of command is more than likely there). If this is an otherwise decent soldier, maybe paperwork isn't the answer, but sometimes it is the only answer. If it is a soldier that has shown a pattern of disciplinary difficulty, sometimes the reality of an Article 15 proceeding can serve as a wake-up call. Every situation is different, every soldier is different.
The one clear thing is that there is NO WAY that soldier should have been allowed to remain in that formation with those unauthorized sunglasses on. Allowing that not only feeds his disciplinary issues, but sets an example for others. These type of situations are great learning tools for new NCO's, and can serve as training tools as well. The best overall advice, other than the above, is to go to your senior NCO's and ask them for guidance. They have most likely been in similar situations, and have that knowledge to pass on.
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A1C Allen Forbes
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For one it's not part of the military uniform. 2 refusing to follow orders. UCMJ ARTICLE 134. There you go.
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MSgt Art Busch
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Tons of good info. here. Personally, I'd P.T. the formation for a while...All for one and one for all.
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SFC Company Motor Sergeant
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Lose your mind on him. As a young SGT you should be the meanest NCO troops know. When I was a sergeant (E5) my senior NCOs often had to reign me back in. I say you take him around back smoke the shit out of him. Then if he doesnt get the message then counsel him. I think we are to quick to counsel instead of improving joes pt score which is what I tell my joes. "You are not getting smoked private, you are doing the minimum pushups for your APFT so your next PT score is higher". And you are improving joes physical readiness and readiness is the most important thing being pushed lately. Additional PT is not prohibited in any regulation I've read. So when they make a major mistake they do their minimum pushup or situps, making joe stronger also makes joe smarter.
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