Posted on Feb 7, 2015
What do you "Honestly" think about women attending Ranger School?
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Myself and hundreds of other Retired Rangers are tired of all this nonsense of women attending Ranger School. Why is the Army leadership encouraging special preference to attend a premier infantry and leadership school. It is a hard journey for qualified Male Infantrymen to compete for and get an extremely limited slot to attend the Ranger Course. Many of Rangers had to prove themselves to be hardened Infantry Sergeants in order to even be considered to attend the local Pre-Ranger Course, before even thinking of attending The Ranger Course. Normally an Infantry Company and/or Battalion could only send "one" representative soldier to the Pre-Ranger Course (per course). Infantry Soldiers competed amongst each other to get that slot. The 21-day Pre-Ranger Course, was definitely tough as or tougher than Ranger School itself, was hell to get through. And even after passing, was not a guaranteed slot to attend The Ranger Course due to budget, deployment, and training issues for the unit (not the individual soldier). If you did not get the opportunity to attend The Ranger Course within six months, well it was a requirement to attend the local Division 21-day Pre-Ranger (assessment) Course again. Once again, the male soldier had to pass all standards in order to be recommended to attend The Ranger Course. The Ranger Course had the toughest standards. To begin day one of the Ranger Course, during the APFT, the Ranger Instructor (RI) would not allow you to pass the push up or sit up event the first time. Every Male Ranger Student failed the push up event and had to perform the push up event a second time (five to ten minutes later) to Standard! My first attempt at the push up event, we had to complete at least 62 push ups. The RI was counting, 59, 60, 61, 61, 61... and so on. We were warned that we could not stop during the two minute event or else we would be considered a failure at this event. So I kept knocking out the push ups and asked the RI what it was that I was doing wrong. He answered with, shut up Ranger and keep knocking them (push ups) out or you will fail. I kept my mouth shut and knocked out approximately 120 push ups. The RI failed me. I got back in line and had the same RI grade my push ups again about ten minutes later. 59, 60, 61, 61, 61, once again I asked what it was I was doing wrong while I cranked out those push ups, and once again the RI stated shut up Ranger and keep knocking them out or else you will fail. That was the first moments of Ranger School and every standard was just as tough. If you were just there to earn your Tab, you were surely going to drop out of the course. But if you were a fully prepared Infantry Stud with the attitude that you attended the Ranger Course to test yourself and understood that you were going to have to push beyond all personal limitations in order to merely make it through the relentless day of Ranger Training. The one thing I really appreciated about Ranger School is that the Standards were set so high, every Infantry Soldier knew it was the very best training and test that any soldier can volunteer for. When finished, with an average of one hour of sleep per day, moving with heavy (very heavy) loads about 10 to 25 kilometers per day, performing tactical maneuvers, and being graded in leadership positions. It was far more harsh than I ever expected, every bit the hardest single accomplishment as far as physical and mental exhaustion in a training environment is concerned. Even for the most hardened and gruesome Infantryman. Ranger School was no joke. I'm not thinking it is at all a place for females. There is no way possible to keep the standards the same. We were not taken back to the rear with the gear to shower when we smelled. That is what Infantrymen do. It is dirty and frankly stinky, to say the least. I eventually became an RI in the Desert Phase and then later in my career a Senior Ranger Instructor in the Mountain Phase. It was a humbling experience serving with top notch soldiers / world class athlete Rangers. To say the least it was an Honor serving with the Ranger Training Brigade and maintain the standards. Let us not lose that, the standards. Let us not add the nonsense of preferential treatment. The RI's were hard as nails but fair. Let us not give away the farm to break the glass ceiling. You will rarely hear any news of Rangers in action, it is a quiet professional tight knit unit that prides itself on operational security. I can see no way to not change the standards once women attend the Ranger Course. This course will become a political agenda which will cause the truly dedicated Ranger Instructors to lose their jobs as RI's as we once knew it. Is it too late to turn back? Let the nonsense begin, female issues, separate but same, political agenda, media scrutiny, RI unfairness, sexual harassment, preferential treatment, male students No-Go's due to (female) not performing to standards during patrols... The list can go on, just ask any RI that has served a full term as an Ranger Instructor. Let us not forget the original intent for this course is to train men to lead soldiers into combat. When we give these limited (Ranger School) slots to female soldiers/officers, then we take away from the Infantryman, the soldiers themselves, and the Infantry Units. Let us not take this away.
Retired Ranger 1SG David D. Lopez
Paso Robles, CA
Retired Ranger 1SG David D. Lopez
Paso Robles, CA
Posted 11 y ago
Responses: 240
One standard for combat arms schools.
If Pilots can pass it then we all should have one standard when it comes to combat MOS and schools.
If Pilots can pass it then we all should have one standard when it comes to combat MOS and schools.
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As long as they can pass the same standard that is set and not a special one then let them.
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I wish them a fair, and even shake. Best of luck to all who attend that challenging course, and kudos for volunteering to do so when so many others do not! Excelsior!
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After 27 years as an active duty Soldier, I still don't think women need to be Rangers. Some areas of the military need to remain males only. Why doesn't the military create something along the same lines, but for women?
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I was lucky enough to attend Ranger School as a PFC in 1988 and was a first time "GO". Ranger School is the premier combat leadership school in the Army. The most common comment I hear is let women go so long as the standards are the equal for both sexes. The standards can be the same but the course will never be equal between men and women. Aside from being a leadership school it is a gut check as well. Women are biologically different then men as we all know, and have very different hygiene needs as well. They will need showers more often than men will get especially during their monthly cycle. I would have loved a hot shower during Florida and Desert Phase in Dugway Utah. I don't doubt their fitness, or ability to learn. Aside from hygiene differences, those that have attended surely remember spooning with a Ranger Buddy to stay warm when you where lucky enough to get a couple hours of sleep. Having a male and female student spooning opens another can of worms. As far as women in the Infantry, I was taught from a young age to protect women from harm at all costs. I know that during my tour in Iraq as an Infantry Platoon Sergeant this would be nothing but a distraction I couldn't afford to take. I had a hard enough time trying to keep my male soldiers as safe as I possibly could. I think those that are trying to push this agenda need to take some of these facts in mind before trying to be PC. RLTW!
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I have an honest question about women in Ranger School. I understand that when a rope bridge is required in Ranger School, the RI will select a student who will strip naked and swim across with a rope to make the bridge. How does the integration of women into Ranger School work with this? Will women automatically be exempt from the possibility of this duty? Would that be fair? If they are selected for it, how do you keep all the male Ranger students from ogling her? Would it even be tactically sound for all of them to look away?
Also, winter Ranger students commonly report very intimate cuddling to stay warm. How would spouses feel about this, with mixed Ranger classes?
Also, winter Ranger students commonly report very intimate cuddling to stay warm. How would spouses feel about this, with mixed Ranger classes?
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CPT David Bernheim
SPC Elijah J. Henry, MBA I have never heard of anyone having to strip first to swim across a stream for RS. If that is part of the POI, that must be newer than 8-84. As to ogling, we talked of women/sex for the first few days only. After that, every single conversation that was not tactical centered around what we wanted to eat when we finished.
"Cuddling" as you put it...we warmed up back to back since 18% of your warmth comes from your back. As a spouse (my wife is back on active duty), I would not give a rat's ass if she was back to back with someone if it kept her alive. In today's military, (and even in my day) what is to say the person (male) you are back to back with is not someone's spouse? What is to say he does not have a he waiting on him.
Please take the sex talk out of the equation. Those of us who have been there know better, IMHO. (I mean you no disrespect, sir. I realize you are asking "honest questions". My answers are also honest from my 3' perspective.) All my best.
"Cuddling" as you put it...we warmed up back to back since 18% of your warmth comes from your back. As a spouse (my wife is back on active duty), I would not give a rat's ass if she was back to back with someone if it kept her alive. In today's military, (and even in my day) what is to say the person (male) you are back to back with is not someone's spouse? What is to say he does not have a he waiting on him.
Please take the sex talk out of the equation. Those of us who have been there know better, IMHO. (I mean you no disrespect, sir. I realize you are asking "honest questions". My answers are also honest from my 3' perspective.) All my best.
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I guess I am confused here. I thought the in today's Army we were all soldiers. When I turned to face my platoon I did not see the their sex or the color of their skin, I could care less about their religion or their sexual preferanence. I saw soldiers... Period. You see, in today's Army anyone wearing the uniform could end up doing damn near anything at some point in their career. Therefore, why would we prevent any of them from being the best trained and prepared for this reality they can possibly be?
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1SG Michael Bonnett
Looking ahead for the Sgt Maj of the Army slot I see....
Do you honestly think anyone who wants in a ground combat unit should be assigned even if they are incapable of doing the job month after month or is it Mission First?
Honesty is a requirement for a Leader, but perhaps not for a politician in uniform...
Which are you and please answer the question...
Mission First or politics?
Do you honestly think anyone who wants in a ground combat unit should be assigned even if they are incapable of doing the job month after month or is it Mission First?
Honesty is a requirement for a Leader, but perhaps not for a politician in uniform...
Which are you and please answer the question...
Mission First or politics?
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SFC Christopher Perry
1SG Michael Bonnett Being as your account shows you as an unverified veteran, I would typically not bother responding. Admittedly, I found this one simply irresistible.
First I want to make sure I have this right. If my opinion does not align with yours I am ether being dishonest or i must be seeking a career in politics, or possibly even both. Is that about right? I guess the fact that we know each other so well leaves you in a position to question my integrity. Wait, you know absolutly nothing about me. Other than what my (complete) profile tells you.
Nowhere in my post did you find my saying that the standard should be adjusted to make allowances for anyone. In my personal opinion, once you adjust the bar in one direction or anther in an attempt to compensate you render the standard meaningless. I simply stated that if someone proves they can do the job, their gender should not make any difference.
Lastly, I am thrilled you brought up mission. You must have served in a very different Army than I have. Typically, folks at my level, or yours for that matter are not setting policy or dictating the mission. Our job is to execute said mission. If i were given a mission to accomplish and a platoon, the fact that said platoon is made up of male or female Soldiers should not determine whether I am able to successfully execute the mission. Are you telling me that this would prohibit your ability to succeed as a leader?
First I want to make sure I have this right. If my opinion does not align with yours I am ether being dishonest or i must be seeking a career in politics, or possibly even both. Is that about right? I guess the fact that we know each other so well leaves you in a position to question my integrity. Wait, you know absolutly nothing about me. Other than what my (complete) profile tells you.
Nowhere in my post did you find my saying that the standard should be adjusted to make allowances for anyone. In my personal opinion, once you adjust the bar in one direction or anther in an attempt to compensate you render the standard meaningless. I simply stated that if someone proves they can do the job, their gender should not make any difference.
Lastly, I am thrilled you brought up mission. You must have served in a very different Army than I have. Typically, folks at my level, or yours for that matter are not setting policy or dictating the mission. Our job is to execute said mission. If i were given a mission to accomplish and a platoon, the fact that said platoon is made up of male or female Soldiers should not determine whether I am able to successfully execute the mission. Are you telling me that this would prohibit your ability to succeed as a leader?
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1SG Michael Bonnett
I did not bother filling the rest out because honestly I did my 23 years and moved on. If you look at someone's profile before giving weight to their words there is another word I could use... but I won't.
And yes I am calling you a politician. I did not look at your profile , why bother?
" You see, in today's Army anyone wearing the uniform could end up doing damn near anything at some point in their career"
You can see a 5 ft. 6 female pulling her weight in a ground combat unit? Really?
You would make a fine replacement for that SMA we just got rid of. My army probably was different than yours. We had far fewer weasels in it.
And yes I am calling you a politician. I did not look at your profile , why bother?
" You see, in today's Army anyone wearing the uniform could end up doing damn near anything at some point in their career"
You can see a 5 ft. 6 female pulling her weight in a ground combat unit? Really?
You would make a fine replacement for that SMA we just got rid of. My army probably was different than yours. We had far fewer weasels in it.
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SFC Christopher Perry
The only determination I made based on your profile is the fact that your service has not been verified. I hate to break it to you but that carries a whole lot of weight in this forum.
Unfortunately, I really have lost interest in the conversation now. You did not address anything I said you merely regurgitated the same old stuff. That and I have found that when folks stoop to name calling it is because they have nothing of value to add to the conversation.
Unfortunately, I really have lost interest in the conversation now. You did not address anything I said you merely regurgitated the same old stuff. That and I have found that when folks stoop to name calling it is because they have nothing of value to add to the conversation.
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If a female Soldier is tactically sound, technically proficient and has the maturity, physical strength, endurance and mental toughness needed to earn a Ranger tab than they should be allowed to do so. I don't believe that they should be assigned to a Ranger Regiment nor do I believe that any standards should be lowered to accommodate
them.
them.
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1SG David Lopez
Thanks for your comment SSG Thomas Brousseau, this is the New Age Army, women have the same opportunities.
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If they can meet the same standards...more power to them! I'm all for it!
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If they can do the same pt as the male counter parts and be able to carry at least 180 lb guy uot of harms way then all for it. But I would not want to be that guy with a female battle body that has to leave me for dead on the field just becouse she can't carry or drag me to safety. And I would be worried about there safty look what happens on bases let alone on a battle field with a bunch of young and some times dumm and immature guys that have not seen or been with a girl in one or so plus years. You know that's just a lot for bad going to happen. Sorry to say. When I was in I seen a lot of very bad behavior and well on a base just think what would happen in more. Bad for the service to even put a girl in that position let alone all the press. Just the average age of special force men. Not a good idea. But if they can pass the mustard and they want to do it I think we are a free country and well . Who am I to say. Good luck girls/ women. :)
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