Posted on Feb 7, 2015
What do you "Honestly" think about women attending Ranger School?
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Myself and hundreds of other Retired Rangers are tired of all this nonsense of women attending Ranger School. Why is the Army leadership encouraging special preference to attend a premier infantry and leadership school. It is a hard journey for qualified Male Infantrymen to compete for and get an extremely limited slot to attend the Ranger Course. Many of Rangers had to prove themselves to be hardened Infantry Sergeants in order to even be considered to attend the local Pre-Ranger Course, before even thinking of attending The Ranger Course. Normally an Infantry Company and/or Battalion could only send "one" representative soldier to the Pre-Ranger Course (per course). Infantry Soldiers competed amongst each other to get that slot. The 21-day Pre-Ranger Course, was definitely tough as or tougher than Ranger School itself, was hell to get through. And even after passing, was not a guaranteed slot to attend The Ranger Course due to budget, deployment, and training issues for the unit (not the individual soldier). If you did not get the opportunity to attend The Ranger Course within six months, well it was a requirement to attend the local Division 21-day Pre-Ranger (assessment) Course again. Once again, the male soldier had to pass all standards in order to be recommended to attend The Ranger Course. The Ranger Course had the toughest standards. To begin day one of the Ranger Course, during the APFT, the Ranger Instructor (RI) would not allow you to pass the push up or sit up event the first time. Every Male Ranger Student failed the push up event and had to perform the push up event a second time (five to ten minutes later) to Standard! My first attempt at the push up event, we had to complete at least 62 push ups. The RI was counting, 59, 60, 61, 61, 61... and so on. We were warned that we could not stop during the two minute event or else we would be considered a failure at this event. So I kept knocking out the push ups and asked the RI what it was that I was doing wrong. He answered with, shut up Ranger and keep knocking them (push ups) out or you will fail. I kept my mouth shut and knocked out approximately 120 push ups. The RI failed me. I got back in line and had the same RI grade my push ups again about ten minutes later. 59, 60, 61, 61, 61, once again I asked what it was I was doing wrong while I cranked out those push ups, and once again the RI stated shut up Ranger and keep knocking them out or else you will fail. That was the first moments of Ranger School and every standard was just as tough. If you were just there to earn your Tab, you were surely going to drop out of the course. But if you were a fully prepared Infantry Stud with the attitude that you attended the Ranger Course to test yourself and understood that you were going to have to push beyond all personal limitations in order to merely make it through the relentless day of Ranger Training. The one thing I really appreciated about Ranger School is that the Standards were set so high, every Infantry Soldier knew it was the very best training and test that any soldier can volunteer for. When finished, with an average of one hour of sleep per day, moving with heavy (very heavy) loads about 10 to 25 kilometers per day, performing tactical maneuvers, and being graded in leadership positions. It was far more harsh than I ever expected, every bit the hardest single accomplishment as far as physical and mental exhaustion in a training environment is concerned. Even for the most hardened and gruesome Infantryman. Ranger School was no joke. I'm not thinking it is at all a place for females. There is no way possible to keep the standards the same. We were not taken back to the rear with the gear to shower when we smelled. That is what Infantrymen do. It is dirty and frankly stinky, to say the least. I eventually became an RI in the Desert Phase and then later in my career a Senior Ranger Instructor in the Mountain Phase. It was a humbling experience serving with top notch soldiers / world class athlete Rangers. To say the least it was an Honor serving with the Ranger Training Brigade and maintain the standards. Let us not lose that, the standards. Let us not add the nonsense of preferential treatment. The RI's were hard as nails but fair. Let us not give away the farm to break the glass ceiling. You will rarely hear any news of Rangers in action, it is a quiet professional tight knit unit that prides itself on operational security. I can see no way to not change the standards once women attend the Ranger Course. This course will become a political agenda which will cause the truly dedicated Ranger Instructors to lose their jobs as RI's as we once knew it. Is it too late to turn back? Let the nonsense begin, female issues, separate but same, political agenda, media scrutiny, RI unfairness, sexual harassment, preferential treatment, male students No-Go's due to (female) not performing to standards during patrols... The list can go on, just ask any RI that has served a full term as an Ranger Instructor. Let us not forget the original intent for this course is to train men to lead soldiers into combat. When we give these limited (Ranger School) slots to female soldiers/officers, then we take away from the Infantryman, the soldiers themselves, and the Infantry Units. Let us not take this away.
Retired Ranger 1SG David D. Lopez
Paso Robles, CA
Retired Ranger 1SG David D. Lopez
Paso Robles, CA
Women in the Military
Ranger
Ranger School
Posted 11 y ago
Responses: 240
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I believe they can handle it if that's what they want. who's to hold them back. if they make good, but if not give them a 100% for effort in trying to be one of the best. God bless them. I don't see many men qualifying either.
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So a third female has graduated Ranger School , the army's premier leadership school-now regardless of how you feel about ladies in the combat arms, this is quite a feat-Major Jaster was in the school for 6 months. There has been talk of standard dropping, standard changes or downright ignoring the standard-either way many graduates from the school have had to restart for one reason or another-to me this shows that a certain type of female soldier can and will make it in the combat arms world-not many but some-and this is where my beef comes up.
Firstly-yes chicks CAN do this, however the number will be miniscule and RS is the top tier so maybe more can come in as regular old combat arms 11,12 13, and medic MOS's, but the number will be small still, so where do they go? Are they going to same all female infantry platoon/company or mixed in the units at a 1 to 13 female to male ratio??? This isn't an argument on whether than can do it or not -its what's the best way to utilize them for the fight.
Secondly the school itself- The stigma of the tab versus the scroll is known rampant across the army even us regular guys hear of it the moment any one brings up our top tired badasses. I feel a name change for the school and tab is in order -not to diminish eithers prestige but to more accurately describe the training and purpose of both the school and the elite infantry Regiment. Even if these ladies can get into the combat arms jobs and gradate the grueling courses of advanced schools, will they even get to show it in actual combat and get leadership positions at all? Not doubting their skills but will they actually be able to put thier training to use in combat?-Graduating RS is amazing and all but come on we cant just have that effort in specialized training given to someone and then have them sit at a desk the rest of thier TIS. In a sense this is another version of the airborne school versus actually being in an airborne unit-do we really need Joe Schmoe from an S1 shop get training for jumps that will likely be his first and last? Do these folks who go to the school then go to thier unit and collect the extra pay but never again use that training have to have it? Again this is all my modest opinion from a vet whose been out so what do I know anymore and Im grateful and proud that that ladies are advancing in this day and age in the warfare duties. Some people can do this job, some cant - and if there some who want to do this job and they are females, who cares- let 'em at it. However the head honchos need to come up with answers for mitigating unnecessary training and develop practical applications for utilizing the training given to the ladies and all SM's in general especially in the downsizing era the military is in.. Any thoughts on this?
Firstly-yes chicks CAN do this, however the number will be miniscule and RS is the top tier so maybe more can come in as regular old combat arms 11,12 13, and medic MOS's, but the number will be small still, so where do they go? Are they going to same all female infantry platoon/company or mixed in the units at a 1 to 13 female to male ratio??? This isn't an argument on whether than can do it or not -its what's the best way to utilize them for the fight.
Secondly the school itself- The stigma of the tab versus the scroll is known rampant across the army even us regular guys hear of it the moment any one brings up our top tired badasses. I feel a name change for the school and tab is in order -not to diminish eithers prestige but to more accurately describe the training and purpose of both the school and the elite infantry Regiment. Even if these ladies can get into the combat arms jobs and gradate the grueling courses of advanced schools, will they even get to show it in actual combat and get leadership positions at all? Not doubting their skills but will they actually be able to put thier training to use in combat?-Graduating RS is amazing and all but come on we cant just have that effort in specialized training given to someone and then have them sit at a desk the rest of thier TIS. In a sense this is another version of the airborne school versus actually being in an airborne unit-do we really need Joe Schmoe from an S1 shop get training for jumps that will likely be his first and last? Do these folks who go to the school then go to thier unit and collect the extra pay but never again use that training have to have it? Again this is all my modest opinion from a vet whose been out so what do I know anymore and Im grateful and proud that that ladies are advancing in this day and age in the warfare duties. Some people can do this job, some cant - and if there some who want to do this job and they are females, who cares- let 'em at it. However the head honchos need to come up with answers for mitigating unnecessary training and develop practical applications for utilizing the training given to the ladies and all SM's in general especially in the downsizing era the military is in.. Any thoughts on this?
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1SG David Lopez
Very intelligent posting. You should have become an Officer, we need people like you with common sense. Thanks for you honest insight on this subject.
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The real question in my mind is why the Army spent the dollars, time, energy, and scarce slots to train people (females) who can not fill a combat billet to use their training? That smacks of favoritism.
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I as an old soldier would like to congratulate all who passed the course. It is quite the accomplishment. Now as an old soldier I also know this has only come up because when the draft ended women volunteered to fill the shortages.. If those women can fill the slots let them. My wife lost a female cousin in Iraq. Seems to me she did what most American Males wont do. She joined the Army to serve her country. So if there are insufficient males to soldier up then we must let women.
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I have to weigh in on this because I see so many questions about women wanting to get into more combat roles such as Rangers, SEAL's and other SOF.
I just wonder if every guy who is complaining that their penis is shrinking because of the thought that some women are going to pass every phase of a combat school and eventually be assigned to SOF units.
I personally don't know if I could pass the grueling testing required to be a Ranger or SEAL, I would like to think I would do pretty well but if I am outdone by a woman than that means she had more drive and determination to pass than I did.
I respect every service member who goes out and gives it their all but I don't begrudge anyone for trying and not making it.
I refuse to say fail because the only way you fail is when you never try. I can try and not pass but that does not equate failure it equates that I just didn't make it and that maybe that particular job wasn't for me.
Every time you take an opportunity you succeed because not taking that opportunity and trying is failure.
If anyone is upset with what I said then its on you as this is my opinion, like it or not.
I just wonder if every guy who is complaining that their penis is shrinking because of the thought that some women are going to pass every phase of a combat school and eventually be assigned to SOF units.
I personally don't know if I could pass the grueling testing required to be a Ranger or SEAL, I would like to think I would do pretty well but if I am outdone by a woman than that means she had more drive and determination to pass than I did.
I respect every service member who goes out and gives it their all but I don't begrudge anyone for trying and not making it.
I refuse to say fail because the only way you fail is when you never try. I can try and not pass but that does not equate failure it equates that I just didn't make it and that maybe that particular job wasn't for me.
Every time you take an opportunity you succeed because not taking that opportunity and trying is failure.
If anyone is upset with what I said then its on you as this is my opinion, like it or not.
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I have read a number of posts on this topic and would submit that most folks have completely missed the point. The US military exists for one thing and one only and that is to fight and win the nation's wars. This not about fairness or social justice or giving women a chance to prove themselves in a new role...this is about creating and maintaining the most lethal fighting force on earth. Very few folks on this thread have mentioned combat...instead it sounds like we are preparing for a long sporting event. The problem is we have been embroiled in a conflict for over 13 years that has fooled our military and politicians into believing this is actual war.....it is not....it is a long low intensity conflict that has actually involved very few combat troops. Allowing women into Ranger school and/or pushing for them to serve in additional combat roles will only serve to degrade our military capabilities. It is that simple. The team is only as strong as it weakest link. Frankly, most folks simply have no frame of reference for the type of war our military will face in the future (and it looks nothing like what we have seen in Afghanistan and Iraq.) In WWII the global population was reduced by 60 MILLION people (3% of the world population.) We didn't play Army and experiment...if we had done so we would have lost....instead we sent MEN into the field to kill our enemies and in a manner as lethal as fast as possible. Folks, this is real, its not a game but unfortunately our society is in such as state of fantasy that we are now destroying the last great institution left in the nation. KDM (2d Ranger Battalion, 89-91, 94-97, 101st Airborne
(AASLT) 91-93.
(AASLT) 91-93.
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SFC James Needles
Good point Cpt McCown. Interesting that you should mention WWII sir. Were you aware that some of the most effective snipers in the Soviet Army in WWII were actually women? That fact surprised me some time ago after I saw "Enemy at the Gate" and decided to find out if the Soviets actually did have Female snipers or if it was Hollywood at work. I wish I could remember specific names or units for you to research as it was definitely interesting
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I was surprised two women passed the Ranger Qualification Program. Now we have to wait to find out if they will actually serve with the 75th Ranger Battalion. But I still have reservations with having women serve in combat although I know some have.
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