Posted on Feb 7, 2015
What do you "Honestly" think about women attending Ranger School?
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Myself and hundreds of other Retired Rangers are tired of all this nonsense of women attending Ranger School. Why is the Army leadership encouraging special preference to attend a premier infantry and leadership school. It is a hard journey for qualified Male Infantrymen to compete for and get an extremely limited slot to attend the Ranger Course. Many of Rangers had to prove themselves to be hardened Infantry Sergeants in order to even be considered to attend the local Pre-Ranger Course, before even thinking of attending The Ranger Course. Normally an Infantry Company and/or Battalion could only send "one" representative soldier to the Pre-Ranger Course (per course). Infantry Soldiers competed amongst each other to get that slot. The 21-day Pre-Ranger Course, was definitely tough as or tougher than Ranger School itself, was hell to get through. And even after passing, was not a guaranteed slot to attend The Ranger Course due to budget, deployment, and training issues for the unit (not the individual soldier). If you did not get the opportunity to attend The Ranger Course within six months, well it was a requirement to attend the local Division 21-day Pre-Ranger (assessment) Course again. Once again, the male soldier had to pass all standards in order to be recommended to attend The Ranger Course. The Ranger Course had the toughest standards. To begin day one of the Ranger Course, during the APFT, the Ranger Instructor (RI) would not allow you to pass the push up or sit up event the first time. Every Male Ranger Student failed the push up event and had to perform the push up event a second time (five to ten minutes later) to Standard! My first attempt at the push up event, we had to complete at least 62 push ups. The RI was counting, 59, 60, 61, 61, 61... and so on. We were warned that we could not stop during the two minute event or else we would be considered a failure at this event. So I kept knocking out the push ups and asked the RI what it was that I was doing wrong. He answered with, shut up Ranger and keep knocking them (push ups) out or you will fail. I kept my mouth shut and knocked out approximately 120 push ups. The RI failed me. I got back in line and had the same RI grade my push ups again about ten minutes later. 59, 60, 61, 61, 61, once again I asked what it was I was doing wrong while I cranked out those push ups, and once again the RI stated shut up Ranger and keep knocking them out or else you will fail. That was the first moments of Ranger School and every standard was just as tough. If you were just there to earn your Tab, you were surely going to drop out of the course. But if you were a fully prepared Infantry Stud with the attitude that you attended the Ranger Course to test yourself and understood that you were going to have to push beyond all personal limitations in order to merely make it through the relentless day of Ranger Training. The one thing I really appreciated about Ranger School is that the Standards were set so high, every Infantry Soldier knew it was the very best training and test that any soldier can volunteer for. When finished, with an average of one hour of sleep per day, moving with heavy (very heavy) loads about 10 to 25 kilometers per day, performing tactical maneuvers, and being graded in leadership positions. It was far more harsh than I ever expected, every bit the hardest single accomplishment as far as physical and mental exhaustion in a training environment is concerned. Even for the most hardened and gruesome Infantryman. Ranger School was no joke. I'm not thinking it is at all a place for females. There is no way possible to keep the standards the same. We were not taken back to the rear with the gear to shower when we smelled. That is what Infantrymen do. It is dirty and frankly stinky, to say the least. I eventually became an RI in the Desert Phase and then later in my career a Senior Ranger Instructor in the Mountain Phase. It was a humbling experience serving with top notch soldiers / world class athlete Rangers. To say the least it was an Honor serving with the Ranger Training Brigade and maintain the standards. Let us not lose that, the standards. Let us not add the nonsense of preferential treatment. The RI's were hard as nails but fair. Let us not give away the farm to break the glass ceiling. You will rarely hear any news of Rangers in action, it is a quiet professional tight knit unit that prides itself on operational security. I can see no way to not change the standards once women attend the Ranger Course. This course will become a political agenda which will cause the truly dedicated Ranger Instructors to lose their jobs as RI's as we once knew it. Is it too late to turn back? Let the nonsense begin, female issues, separate but same, political agenda, media scrutiny, RI unfairness, sexual harassment, preferential treatment, male students No-Go's due to (female) not performing to standards during patrols... The list can go on, just ask any RI that has served a full term as an Ranger Instructor. Let us not forget the original intent for this course is to train men to lead soldiers into combat. When we give these limited (Ranger School) slots to female soldiers/officers, then we take away from the Infantryman, the soldiers themselves, and the Infantry Units. Let us not take this away.
Retired Ranger 1SG David D. Lopez
Paso Robles, CA
Retired Ranger 1SG David D. Lopez
Paso Robles, CA
Posted 11 y ago
Responses: 240
If they can meet the existing standards without watering down any requirements, more power to them. No special preferences or treatment for anyone, regardless of gender.
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SFC Arthur Tucker
Do you think they would have made it had the General not shown up and walked with them as a lane grader? Sounds watered down to me.
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Top, women are 16% of the army, they've engaged in combat since the Revolution. Women fought, were wounded and died in the last 14 years. Women ARE a part of the Army and will stay a part of the Army whether you like it or not. Women have a right to try out to make Ranger School.
Now I know that you're give me the old nonsense about strength etc. the old BS about female mechanics not being able to carry their tool boxes...well I've seen males who couldn't carry their toolboxes and soldiers who couldn't load 120mm tank ammo above their heads.
We are in a recruiting crisis, roughly 1 in 8 potential recruits meets the physical, mental and moral (police record) standards to enlist. This is one reason why we have to maximize every soldiers potential.
Like it or not sooner or later a woman is going to make it thru Ranger school.
Look at armies around the world... Fierce Kurdish female fighters in the Peshmerga, female tankers in the Israeli army and so on.
I can't help but feel that their masculinity is threatened by the thought of a female holding their MOS. it's a reality females will be accepted into more and more MOS. no ones man card will be revoked.
Now I know that you're give me the old nonsense about strength etc. the old BS about female mechanics not being able to carry their tool boxes...well I've seen males who couldn't carry their toolboxes and soldiers who couldn't load 120mm tank ammo above their heads.
We are in a recruiting crisis, roughly 1 in 8 potential recruits meets the physical, mental and moral (police record) standards to enlist. This is one reason why we have to maximize every soldiers potential.
Like it or not sooner or later a woman is going to make it thru Ranger school.
Look at armies around the world... Fierce Kurdish female fighters in the Peshmerga, female tankers in the Israeli army and so on.
I can't help but feel that their masculinity is threatened by the thought of a female holding their MOS. it's a reality females will be accepted into more and more MOS. no ones man card will be revoked.
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1SG David Lopez
Thanks for your comment. I am open to equal opportunity, but I am not open to changing the standards. We want our beloved RS to stay harder than hard, tougher than tough, challenging, and not for the weak or faint hearted. Its main purpose is to train soldiers/leaders to lead men to successfully close with and defeat the enemy. We owe it to all of our Soldiers to provide the best training for those that accomplish the harsh task of completing RS.
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SFC Arthur Tucker
Think what it will be like in the future for those women after they carry the loads and participate in the things that the men have to go through. The VA and all medical facilities will be overwhelmed with injury patients. No women are not built like men and the future medical problems will show that.
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SFC James Needles
Have you ever observed or supported an EFMB course, have you ever lifted a Medics aid bag to see how heavy it is? Do you realize that our Medics carry that load in addition to the basic load every soldier carries? Do realize that there are a LOT of Female Medics that attempt and pass the EFMB every year? The only MOS I can think of where a soldier is as likely to see as much death and gore as an Infantryman is the Combat Medic. You're right SFC Tucker, women are not built like men and generally speaking, do not have the same physical capabilities as men. I served with three different medical units in my career and all three had Female medics. I have seen them carry the loads, look death in the face and yes some failed the course, some stayed in the aid stations. Some passed the course and some went out on patrols. Yes some are paying a high physical, mental and emotional price for what they did..... but they did it
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I personally do not have an issue with it if the standards do not very. They have a standard for a reason.
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SFC Arthur Tucker
You don't suppose the standards did vary when a General shows up as a lane grader to insure that they made it? Take it from there.
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What I believe on this issue doesnt matter. The results of this little experiment will speak for themselves... but even still, those results will be ignored. That is the very reason that I know that this whole thing is being done for the absolute worst reasons possible.
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PFC (Join to see)
To clarify... neither side will like the results that dont favor them. This is an "Us vs. Them" sort of thing... and that is precisely the kind of bullshit that gets people killed in combat.
Society isnt ready. We will pay for ignoring that fact with compromising American lives and national security.
Society isnt ready. We will pay for ignoring that fact with compromising American lives and national security.
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What about the bias against tall people on submarines? Why shouldn't a 7 ft person be allowed on submarines?
Look, if the person can do the job just like everyone else, then they should get the chance. Just like everyone else.
Look, if the person can do the job just like everyone else, then they should get the chance. Just like everyone else.
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If they work hard and put they mind into it, they'll earn that tab. It just depend on the individual.
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If they can handle the same standards, and we don't lower it in future, then I say have it. It's not just an Infantry school anymore. It hasn't been that way for a while. Hell, each SF Group has an 18 man Detachment called a Chemical Reconnaissance Detachment (CRD) of 74Ds (CBRN guys) that hold "V" slots. As long we prove ourselves in our unit, we can go to RTAC and Ranger School anytime we want. As long as there are no deployments.
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1SG David Lopez
Good, same standards, same quality of training, no preferential treatment, equals nothing but Respect. Good Luck.
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Who cares, honestly I'm just really tired of hearing about it! I've got better things to do like, flying a kite.
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Being honest, a few women maybe be able to pass Ranger School, but I would prefer that the power that be stand up more Cultural Support Teams, we need to recognize facts One Female from the CST team in today's religious misguided guerrilla wars can accomplish what 100 of your Ranger School graduates can not.
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CPT Pedro Meza
Top, you need to ask that question to those Rangers that have served on missions with CST and become more inform as to where their command is. I wish I could say more.
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CPT Pedro Meza
Top, please check out the book Ashley's War by Gayle Tzemach Lemmon, good reading thus far, more could be added.
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MAJ Luis Fernando Hernandez
I have no problem with it as long as the standards remain the same and are not watered down. To do so would be to bring dishonor to the Ranger Tab and the program. If women want to wear this tab, then they need to meet ALL the qualifications and not ask for special considerations. Real combat doesn't give a damn about political correctness.
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