Posted on Feb 7, 2015
What do you "Honestly" think about women attending Ranger School?
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Myself and hundreds of other Retired Rangers are tired of all this nonsense of women attending Ranger School. Why is the Army leadership encouraging special preference to attend a premier infantry and leadership school. It is a hard journey for qualified Male Infantrymen to compete for and get an extremely limited slot to attend the Ranger Course. Many of Rangers had to prove themselves to be hardened Infantry Sergeants in order to even be considered to attend the local Pre-Ranger Course, before even thinking of attending The Ranger Course. Normally an Infantry Company and/or Battalion could only send "one" representative soldier to the Pre-Ranger Course (per course). Infantry Soldiers competed amongst each other to get that slot. The 21-day Pre-Ranger Course, was definitely tough as or tougher than Ranger School itself, was hell to get through. And even after passing, was not a guaranteed slot to attend The Ranger Course due to budget, deployment, and training issues for the unit (not the individual soldier). If you did not get the opportunity to attend The Ranger Course within six months, well it was a requirement to attend the local Division 21-day Pre-Ranger (assessment) Course again. Once again, the male soldier had to pass all standards in order to be recommended to attend The Ranger Course. The Ranger Course had the toughest standards. To begin day one of the Ranger Course, during the APFT, the Ranger Instructor (RI) would not allow you to pass the push up or sit up event the first time. Every Male Ranger Student failed the push up event and had to perform the push up event a second time (five to ten minutes later) to Standard! My first attempt at the push up event, we had to complete at least 62 push ups. The RI was counting, 59, 60, 61, 61, 61... and so on. We were warned that we could not stop during the two minute event or else we would be considered a failure at this event. So I kept knocking out the push ups and asked the RI what it was that I was doing wrong. He answered with, shut up Ranger and keep knocking them (push ups) out or you will fail. I kept my mouth shut and knocked out approximately 120 push ups. The RI failed me. I got back in line and had the same RI grade my push ups again about ten minutes later. 59, 60, 61, 61, 61, once again I asked what it was I was doing wrong while I cranked out those push ups, and once again the RI stated shut up Ranger and keep knocking them out or else you will fail. That was the first moments of Ranger School and every standard was just as tough. If you were just there to earn your Tab, you were surely going to drop out of the course. But if you were a fully prepared Infantry Stud with the attitude that you attended the Ranger Course to test yourself and understood that you were going to have to push beyond all personal limitations in order to merely make it through the relentless day of Ranger Training. The one thing I really appreciated about Ranger School is that the Standards were set so high, every Infantry Soldier knew it was the very best training and test that any soldier can volunteer for. When finished, with an average of one hour of sleep per day, moving with heavy (very heavy) loads about 10 to 25 kilometers per day, performing tactical maneuvers, and being graded in leadership positions. It was far more harsh than I ever expected, every bit the hardest single accomplishment as far as physical and mental exhaustion in a training environment is concerned. Even for the most hardened and gruesome Infantryman. Ranger School was no joke. I'm not thinking it is at all a place for females. There is no way possible to keep the standards the same. We were not taken back to the rear with the gear to shower when we smelled. That is what Infantrymen do. It is dirty and frankly stinky, to say the least. I eventually became an RI in the Desert Phase and then later in my career a Senior Ranger Instructor in the Mountain Phase. It was a humbling experience serving with top notch soldiers / world class athlete Rangers. To say the least it was an Honor serving with the Ranger Training Brigade and maintain the standards. Let us not lose that, the standards. Let us not add the nonsense of preferential treatment. The RI's were hard as nails but fair. Let us not give away the farm to break the glass ceiling. You will rarely hear any news of Rangers in action, it is a quiet professional tight knit unit that prides itself on operational security. I can see no way to not change the standards once women attend the Ranger Course. This course will become a political agenda which will cause the truly dedicated Ranger Instructors to lose their jobs as RI's as we once knew it. Is it too late to turn back? Let the nonsense begin, female issues, separate but same, political agenda, media scrutiny, RI unfairness, sexual harassment, preferential treatment, male students No-Go's due to (female) not performing to standards during patrols... The list can go on, just ask any RI that has served a full term as an Ranger Instructor. Let us not forget the original intent for this course is to train men to lead soldiers into combat. When we give these limited (Ranger School) slots to female soldiers/officers, then we take away from the Infantryman, the soldiers themselves, and the Infantry Units. Let us not take this away.
Retired Ranger 1SG David D. Lopez
Paso Robles, CA
Retired Ranger 1SG David D. Lopez
Paso Robles, CA
Women in the Military
Ranger
Ranger School
Posted 11 y ago
Responses: 240
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Should women soldiers be allowed to go to Ranger School? Ranger School is designed to produce effective small unit combat leaders. And the training is conducted through small unit patrols, conducted in very tough conditions. When I worked in the Ranger Department in the early 1970s the average student lost 10% to 15% of his body weight during the eight week Ranger Course. But Infantry COMBAT is even tougher. ( I served two tours as an Infantry Platoon Leader and Company Commander in Viet Nam) And that is what Ranger school prepares it's students to do: be an effective Small Unit Infantry Leader in COMBAT. There is no doubt that have some outstanding women soldiers, and I am sure that some of them could even pass the Ranger Course. But Ranger School is not Combat.
We should not make women Infantry for the same reason that women do not play in the National Football League. Infantry requires physical strength, but also the ability to perform the brutal acts of close combat without hesitation. By nature men are more agressive than women. And I like that difference, and do not see the necessity to try and resocialize some of our women soldiers to the necessary level of brutality for Infantry Combat. Less than 10% of the US Army is Infantry. Infantry is a dirty dangerous job.
In training I have no doubt that women could serve very well in any Infantry unit. They can go on field exercises, make the marches, stay up for 72 hours. But the problem is that all of that activity is merely preparation for COMBAT. The Army already has problems in making the transistion from Peace Time Army to Combat Operations. Including women in the infantry will only make that transistion to the harsh realities of Combat more difficult. And that has the clear potential to cost lives, of both men and women soldiers.
And the other large issue is that with Infantry Soldiers we are talking about young men. And even if women are allowed to serve in the Infantry, (I don't think there would be many women who will be interested), the majority of the Infantry Soldiers will still be young men. And Infantry Squad (8-10 men) Platoon (20-30 men) is like a suspension bridge. It only works when the load is evenly distributed, that is every one is carrying their load. I think the great problem ISN'T the women soldiers, the problem would be the young male soldiers trying to protect the women soldiers in their unit. Young men are going to try to protect the young women (and I think they should) but including women in the Infantry complicates the chaos of Infantry small unit combat. Gives the small unit leader (Fire Team Leaders, Squad Leaders, Platoon Leaders) another variable to consider when they are trying to survive and kill the enemy (which is often the critical issue in surviving).
Young men are going to look after women who are near them in dangerous situations. That instinct is part of human nature, and regulations or laws will not change human nature.
We should not make women Infantry for the same reason that women do not play in the National Football League. Infantry requires physical strength, but also the ability to perform the brutal acts of close combat without hesitation. By nature men are more agressive than women. And I like that difference, and do not see the necessity to try and resocialize some of our women soldiers to the necessary level of brutality for Infantry Combat. Less than 10% of the US Army is Infantry. Infantry is a dirty dangerous job.
In training I have no doubt that women could serve very well in any Infantry unit. They can go on field exercises, make the marches, stay up for 72 hours. But the problem is that all of that activity is merely preparation for COMBAT. The Army already has problems in making the transistion from Peace Time Army to Combat Operations. Including women in the infantry will only make that transistion to the harsh realities of Combat more difficult. And that has the clear potential to cost lives, of both men and women soldiers.
And the other large issue is that with Infantry Soldiers we are talking about young men. And even if women are allowed to serve in the Infantry, (I don't think there would be many women who will be interested), the majority of the Infantry Soldiers will still be young men. And Infantry Squad (8-10 men) Platoon (20-30 men) is like a suspension bridge. It only works when the load is evenly distributed, that is every one is carrying their load. I think the great problem ISN'T the women soldiers, the problem would be the young male soldiers trying to protect the women soldiers in their unit. Young men are going to try to protect the young women (and I think they should) but including women in the Infantry complicates the chaos of Infantry small unit combat. Gives the small unit leader (Fire Team Leaders, Squad Leaders, Platoon Leaders) another variable to consider when they are trying to survive and kill the enemy (which is often the critical issue in surviving).
Young men are going to look after women who are near them in dangerous situations. That instinct is part of human nature, and regulations or laws will not change human nature.
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I can honestly say that if a female Soldier can meet all of the same requirements both physical and mental I don't think there should be an issue with them joining any part of the military. Its when you start making separate standards that I begin to disagree.
But I can say that there are some females in EOD and other jobs that I would choose to fight beside over some of our males. It shouldn't be about gender, it should be strictly based on physical and mental abilities.
But I can say that there are some females in EOD and other jobs that I would choose to fight beside over some of our males. It shouldn't be about gender, it should be strictly based on physical and mental abilities.
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Just don't lower the standards, Top. If they can get thru jump school...do EVERYTHING to same standard as the fellas...I say have at it. Just my 2 cents which don't get near a cup o' joe anymore. I went to jump and air assault schools with several soldiers, who happened to be female, who were tough as nails and had no problem with the physical aspect of the training. BUT I saw a few who sluffed some and the got away with it. To their credit, I saw female officers, who were on the standard and performing well chew the a$$es of the enlisted troops who were not working hard, both male AND female. My units were always all male at Campbell and in Afghanistan because females hadn't been cleared for 11B at that time. BUT in the last few years I've heard good things from the schoolhouse regarding female trainees. Even saw where a female airman had passed Sniper school AND the counter sniper course. Impressive to say the least. I'll finish as I started. Don't lower the standards. If they are rocking on basic soldier skills, pushups, situps, 2-mile run and can hang with some pullups they should be fine. My advice to any lady OR dude before heading out to Fort Benning....be able to hold an 8:00 to 8:30 minute 5 mile run in ACU pants and running shoes AND.... get your 12 mile ruck (w/45 lbs minimum) as far UNDER 3 hours as possible. KNOW YOUR LAND NAV!!! God bless, thanks for your Service and Strike and Kill!!!!!!! ps. Don't show up down there not knowing the Soldiers creed and Ranger creed front and backwards! The Drills and Instructors will MURDER ya! Hooah
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Another case of this administration and current Army leadership being PC. It is a waste of time and will only lower the standards for Ranger school. Women have a place in our Army but Ranger School is not one of them!!! All you weak Generals need to retire as you have fallen victim to the PC Police.
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Here is my honest opinion. It is a waste of money and resources...right now. The military will continue to let female Soldiers attempt to pass ranger school. Eventually, there will be a female Soldier who passes, I have no doubt. But.....how many will fail before that? 50? 100? 1000? It's a waste of a slot to give it to ANYONE, MALE or female, if they do not posses the physical attributes to pass. It's the mental that can only be judged during the course. All due respect to the female Soldiers who are out running, out tucking, and out classing their male counterparts. However, take a look at those you leaving in the dust. Do you think they are the bar you should set to answer if you got what it takes to pass ranger school? If the answer is yes.... Go get em.
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I'm not sure why women should or need to attend ranger school unless they have a combat arms MOS I don't see a reason period.
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Ridiculous! It is not just about Ranger School, it is about the mission of the Ranger unit. I started out in the Infantry (airborne) and I ended up in aviation. I will share the aircraft with any female pilot who completes flight school. But, raid behind enemy lines is no place for a woman.
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I wasn't a Ranger, tabbed, RIP, or in a Bat. I was, however, in a combat hardened, infantry unit.
My opinion about females attending Ranger school it is doomed. Let's say standards aren't actually lowered. They will be. Instructors will have to be more PR conscious, as well as male students. Females won't get peered out because it looks bad on the cadre and training bat. There will be at least one who will pass, not because she passed, but she was passed.
Just the suggestion of women in combat orientated MOSs makes one automatically pass and it's not a gamble against the odds or the hardship, but against the other females to be the baddest of the females to try to be the one or two that will pass.
Here's where the military started getting it wrong. All the cooks, AHA guard/ammunition specialty MOS, CIF (92W MOS) and others, have been taken over by civilians. Then the question is, "What do we do with the cooks who are currently serving when we go to a combat theater?" We put them in Humvees and Deuce-in-halfs and have them do log pacs. We give them the idea that they aren't support and they are instead "just like the infantry" (I hate that saying), and they have limited training in anything but a week long of field training before they deployed.
Now, this mentality builds and evolves from false motivation to full on Stolen Valor and now is becoming doctrine and letting women into Ranger School. What's next? Green Beret females? Master HALO wings?
In 2004, there was talk of a Close Quarter Badge, the starting idea for the Combat Action Badge. It would have gone to Non-Infantry, Non-Medic Combat MOSs. Tankers, Scouts, Artillery, Fisters and Combat Engineers, only. Again, it wasn't equal enough for everyone, so now the PAC clerks on the FOB hear a mortar round and it gets blown out of proportion and everyone gets a CAB, while I know of an Infantryman who has been on 2 combat tours in Iraq who hasn't received a CIB.
In short, no, women shouldn't go to Ranger School, and the Army as a whole needs to take some of the Liberal/Progressive steps that it has taken over the last 10 years, do an about face and retrace those steps.
My opinion about females attending Ranger school it is doomed. Let's say standards aren't actually lowered. They will be. Instructors will have to be more PR conscious, as well as male students. Females won't get peered out because it looks bad on the cadre and training bat. There will be at least one who will pass, not because she passed, but she was passed.
Just the suggestion of women in combat orientated MOSs makes one automatically pass and it's not a gamble against the odds or the hardship, but against the other females to be the baddest of the females to try to be the one or two that will pass.
Here's where the military started getting it wrong. All the cooks, AHA guard/ammunition specialty MOS, CIF (92W MOS) and others, have been taken over by civilians. Then the question is, "What do we do with the cooks who are currently serving when we go to a combat theater?" We put them in Humvees and Deuce-in-halfs and have them do log pacs. We give them the idea that they aren't support and they are instead "just like the infantry" (I hate that saying), and they have limited training in anything but a week long of field training before they deployed.
Now, this mentality builds and evolves from false motivation to full on Stolen Valor and now is becoming doctrine and letting women into Ranger School. What's next? Green Beret females? Master HALO wings?
In 2004, there was talk of a Close Quarter Badge, the starting idea for the Combat Action Badge. It would have gone to Non-Infantry, Non-Medic Combat MOSs. Tankers, Scouts, Artillery, Fisters and Combat Engineers, only. Again, it wasn't equal enough for everyone, so now the PAC clerks on the FOB hear a mortar round and it gets blown out of proportion and everyone gets a CAB, while I know of an Infantryman who has been on 2 combat tours in Iraq who hasn't received a CIB.
In short, no, women shouldn't go to Ranger School, and the Army as a whole needs to take some of the Liberal/Progressive steps that it has taken over the last 10 years, do an about face and retrace those steps.
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So long as no standard is changed for them let them try Exact same standards as males
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