Posted on Apr 20, 2014
What do you think of these requirements for promotion to Sergeant (E-5)?
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Do you agree or disagree with the following statement?<div><br></div><div>In order to be promoted to E5 you should have:<br></div><div><div>- Completed SSD1<br></div><div>- Graduated from WLC</div><div>- Have a minimum of 70% in each event on APFT for 2 consecutive times </div><div>- Weapon qualified at 32 and above 2 consecutive times</div><div>- Attended as minimum soldier of the quarter on a BN or higher level and won. </div></div>
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Responses: 50
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OK, all great things.....BUT....why is it that no one cares about KNOWING YOUR FREAKING JOB!!!! No one seems to care about being 'tactically and technically profecient' anymore....all everyone cares about is making slides look better through PT and weapons scores....we need to change!
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CW3 (Join to see)
SQT for E5 - E7, in addition to passing APFT and completing schools commensurate with their rank. The SQT needs to come back to the Army.
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SFC Michael Faircloth
SGT Frasher that totally depends on your job. What if you were a Master Fitness Instructor, wouldn't physical fitness be the defining characteristic of his job?
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SSG (Join to see)
A promotion tests a persons ability to present themselves and retain knowledge, it does not test ones ability to do his/her job proficiently. while it is important for certain MOS's to concentrate on tactical proficiency, it is less important for others who will not see combat. The promotion system should be geared towards the MOS not a general Army standard
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SFC Timothy Dutcher
How about chain of commands only recommend soldiers deemed worthy of promotion and quit giving the system worthless joes who think being sotm validates anything but a good month. Do your job, do it well, accept leadership opportunities, and take advantage of every opportunity to maximize points. Then when your time comes, you have done everything you can to meet the standard. Btw, I maxed e-5 and e-6 points in my day, in the infantry, no less, so it can be done. Even with limited time to commit. The points included maxing pt, expert marksmanship, and those other factors anyways. I would say the process would be cheapened with those being the only requirements.
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I have to ask, what if the unit went to a range once in 12 months and the Soldier scores 32. What if that same unit schedules another range but the Soldier has to miss it because he is acting NCOIC for his shop and can't miss the QTB? <div><br></div><div>What if a Soldier slipped a disk in his back while helping to lift a PLS tire and now can't score a 70% in sit ups but excels in all other categories? </div><div><br></div><div>It sounds great as a guide but to REQUIRE all of these categories be met prior to promotion could exclude a lot of fine leaders from earning their stripes. </div><div><br></div><div><br></div>
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SSG V. Michelle Woods
Worded perfectly SSG Barrish. A lot of an NCOs' leadership has to be polished when they're actually in a leadership position. That's why it's important for NCOs to truly assess the performance AND potential of a Soldier before sending them off to the board.
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SSgt (Join to see)
SPC - For a guy working in linguistics you sure spell a lot of words incorrectly. As far as these standards I sense of a backdoor attempt at causing strife for those who may lack in any of those areas or have mitigating circumstances. This is a similar comparison to NFL football and 40/times. Some are fast in track but not as much with pads and helmets.
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Okay I'm going to scream here. These requirements are beyond the standing standards; and while I agree you should never settle for bare minimum you cannot keep a Soldier from continuing his/her career if he/she meets those requirements. If the requirement is to PASS the PT test and a Soldier does that with a 190 or whatever then they are good. If the requirement is to qualify on your primary weapon system and you do that with a 24 out of 40; then you are good. If the requirement is to pass the promotion board and you do that; then you are good.<div><br></div><div> I don't understand what some people here are thinking and this is by no means a knock on this up and coming leading out of Ft Gordon. People talk about PT scores as they are the end all be all of what makes you a good Soldier and time and time again, it is said they aren't. What about knowing your job?! What about demonstrating potential leadership skills? What about demonstrating the ability to remain calm under fire or to show the ability to make the right decision when facing a difficult call? Where are those on this list. What in the name of Audie Murphy does winning a SOQ board have to do with keeping someone from pinning on your E5. SPC F have you achieved these requirements? If so awesome but take a second and look to your left and look to your right. The standards are the standards and while they stand a Soldier cannot be held back because he/she didn't win the SOQ board or whatever other crazy requirement people can think of next. Heck, why not make one of the requirements that you have to have been deployed with a certain unit in a certain area and been on a certain mission because to me, that is in line with these requirements. </div><div><br></div><div>As stated below, some Reserve and National Guard units don't go to the range but once a year and as one that would get close to the same score every time I went to the range, I would have a bad day and miss one or two targets. So yeah lets hold someone at E4(P) for an extra year because the unit went to the range and the service member who scored 32 last year pulled the trigger on the 100 meter pop up and left the range with a 31. </div><div><br></div><div>Okay, jumping off my soap box now.</div>
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SGT Shaul Funt
SGT,
You just make my question more relevant, that basically saying that there are too many un justified promotions to the SGT rank.
The weakness of western society in the last generation is being displayed proudly. Everyone think that they can/deserve to be in a leadership position – BS!!!
This day there is no more natural selection process; everyone live in a mindset of self entitlement….everyone want a medal for coming to work and do the minimum required
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SGT Ben Keen
I am by no means saying anyone deserves the privilege of wearing 3 chevrons and holding the title of Sergeant. The rank of Sergeant is one of the most, some might argue the most, important leadership rank in the military. It is where you cut your teeth; develop your leadership style; learn how to manage not just the Soldiers in your charge but also the millions of dollars of equipment. To be a Sergeant is, as stated just seconds ago, a privilege. You are the senior leaders' eyes and hands on the line. You are that young Soldiers main point of contact for anything that they might encounter. You are where the rubber meets the road. So while I agree that no one is entitled to holding a leadership position; my rebuttal to your original post still stands. <div><br></div><div>Look again at what you posted. Have you met those requirements? What about some of the points raised about the weapons qualification? What about those Soldiers, who may be demonstrating great leadership potential within his/her unit but because of the training schedule will not get a chance to qualify again until next year? Winning a SOM or SOQ board would mean that a promotion board would have 1 maybe 2 Soldiers stand in-front of them a month. And really what does a SOM or SOQ board tell you about a Soldiers leadership potential? Just about the same as their PT score. And while on that soapbox yet again, the standard is 60 points in each event. That's it....that's the list...60 points. You think it should be higher...great...I think I should be taller but that isn't happening anytime soon either. Yes Soldiers should be encouraged to achieve the best score possible on the APFT and Weapons qualification but the standard in those events are set.</div><div><br></div><div>I think the real issue may be that there is no true way to determine how good of a leader SPC Joe Snuffy or even better SPC Ben Keen would be. The ability to answer questions with memorized or to score 299 on your PT test or hit 38 out of 40 targets or whatever other benchmark you want to put out there does not give you a clear sign of how SPC Joe Snuffy or SPC Ben Keen would carry our their duty. All senior leaders can really do is help mentor the young up and coming leader; teach them the leasons they will need and hold them to the standards as printed in the ARs, FMs, TMs, DAPAMs, and other policies. </div>
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<p>-Yes. This is a reasonable requirement, in line with other NCOES requirements.</p><p>-Yes. Same as reason one.</p><p>-No. The APFT required score is 180 or above. While I think those that consistently perform well above the standard deserve recognition, this should not be a requirement for promotion.</p><p>-No. This is above the needed score. </p><p>-No. This is not possible for all Soldiers.</p>
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Bottom Line...I disagree with your statement. But, I agree with the concept. You must remember that promotion first begins with the recommendation.
The Army has its minimum standards for a recommendation to promotion and within those standards is the Commander's recommendation. Who does the Commander get their recommendation from...of course, the 1SG and PSGs.
How do you get your 1SG's, PSGs and thus your Commander's recommendation...various answers, but this is where the concept recommended is enacted. A Commander may based on their type of unit establish standards to earn their recommendation for promotion.
My recommendation for Unit Leadership to consider for promotion recommendations:
For recommendation and promotion to SGT:
o teach -2O level tasks to the squad verified by SL using STP/CTT
o complete MOS APPD
o complete SSD1
o participate in the Company Soldier of the Month Board (1SG required recommendation)
o display maintenance or improvement of APFT (also lead SQD/PLT PT)
For SSG:
o teach -3O level tasks to the PLT verified by PSG using STP/CTT
o 25% of subordinates must be promotable
o complete SSD2
o complete Supervisor's Development Course (APPD)
o possess enough distance education credit to max promotion points
o participate in the Company NCO of the Month Board (1SG required recommendation)
o display maintenance or improvement of APFT (also lead PLT/CO PT)
There is always someone gaming the system once you provide transparency to how you operate. With my 1SGs support, and once I briefed the Company on what it would take to earn my recommendation. I had some unhappy NCOs initially, but as they bought into the effort, we produced some good NCOs who are still producing good NCOs into the NCO Corps. Zero IG complaints because I believe the requirements spell out success or something you should already be doing to improve yourself as an NCO. Remember, we are looking for constant improvement, not perfection.
The Army has its minimum standards for a recommendation to promotion and within those standards is the Commander's recommendation. Who does the Commander get their recommendation from...of course, the 1SG and PSGs.
How do you get your 1SG's, PSGs and thus your Commander's recommendation...various answers, but this is where the concept recommended is enacted. A Commander may based on their type of unit establish standards to earn their recommendation for promotion.
My recommendation for Unit Leadership to consider for promotion recommendations:
For recommendation and promotion to SGT:
o teach -2O level tasks to the squad verified by SL using STP/CTT
o complete MOS APPD
o complete SSD1
o participate in the Company Soldier of the Month Board (1SG required recommendation)
o display maintenance or improvement of APFT (also lead SQD/PLT PT)
For SSG:
o teach -3O level tasks to the PLT verified by PSG using STP/CTT
o 25% of subordinates must be promotable
o complete SSD2
o complete Supervisor's Development Course (APPD)
o possess enough distance education credit to max promotion points
o participate in the Company NCO of the Month Board (1SG required recommendation)
o display maintenance or improvement of APFT (also lead PLT/CO PT)
There is always someone gaming the system once you provide transparency to how you operate. With my 1SGs support, and once I briefed the Company on what it would take to earn my recommendation. I had some unhappy NCOs initially, but as they bought into the effort, we produced some good NCOs who are still producing good NCOs into the NCO Corps. Zero IG complaints because I believe the requirements spell out success or something you should already be doing to improve yourself as an NCO. Remember, we are looking for constant improvement, not perfection.
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SSG (Join to see)
I agree with most of what you recommend Sir. the only question i have and not just for you is why should SSD1 be included? I see too many soldiers just breezing through it, a sort of check the block type training. I don't know how much if any retention of information is had with it and how that translates into NCO success. I know that is not what you were saying but I just don't see the value in SSD1 besides seeing if a soldier is diligent enough to finish.
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MAJ (Join to see)
I've been out of the mix for a 2 years now but I believe it's a requirement for WLC, so I'm going to ensure my Soldiers are prepared by completing pre-requisites for promotion and any NCOES school required for promotion.
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SFC (Join to see)
SSG Barrish according to Milper message 13-275, SSD-1 completion is a requirement to recomendation to SGT
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The problem with good ideas is that they sound great until you have to implement them. Familiar with TRIPS? <div><br><div>-WLC was once a requirement for SGT that was pulled when deployment constraints made it impossible to maintain. Chances are, the Army will institute it again at a later date. </div></div><div>-Many units outside of FORSCOM just are not able to qualify twice a year. I spent 3 years at RTB and didn't get a chance to qualify until we built our own range. </div><div>-As for a Soldier of the quarter board, the numbers just don't add up. A single battalion would only have 1 eligible soldier every 3 months. 4 SGT's a year.</div><div><br></div><div>I think a better option would be to go to MOS testing like our sister services use, and that were once used in the Army. This way, if I have a medic who comes to me from a unit where he wasn't performing medical duties, I would know he has a base of knowledge that I could expect every SGT to have. Even that would be difficult to institute. It would require a massive amount of testing personnel and new testing facilities.</div>
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Why can't we leave the reg's the way they are and charge the NCOs that recommend these soldiers with making sure a SPC is ready for the next level and if they are not then don't recommend them. I haven't had tons of SPC working for me over the years but I only have recommended one of them for the SGT board. mainly because most were not ready, but because my name is on that soldier who I recommend. I know them inside and out and I know that regardless of their board performance if they will be a good SGT or not. I don't know why the army just doesn't hold the SSGs and above to a higher standard for recommending these soldiers.
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Suspended Profile
I'd be on board for the top 4 as requirements to STAY an NCO. I think that's something the Army lacks, enforceable standards to maintain the rank once achieved.
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I think all of that would be fantastic, if the primary requirement was passing a form of SQT. I know before my time there was a Skills Qualification Test. I can think of no legitimate reason the SQT relative to MOS should not be a part of the promotion process. Speaking as someone in the lower enlisted ranks, I follow knowledge and experience, not just random 300 APFT #47.
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All of those things are basic Soldier tasks. You already have to complete SSD1 before promotion. To be boarded for Soldier of the QTR at least once can be difficult to accomplish. Especially in larger units such as Infantry Battalions where the number of E4 and below are too great to ensure that all E4s get a shot to compete on such a board. Also, none of those are indicators of Leadership potential other than the 1059 you get from WLC. But not even that guarantees that the SGL at the course made good or accurate observations and then documented them. Being willing and able to share MOS/Job knowledge with those in your section and putting team before self however, ARE indicators of Leadership potential. Being able to do basic Soldier functions is everyone's job. Being able to help improve performance of a section through MOS mentorship is not. AND that is what we need more of if junior Soldiers are to become NCOs.
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SSG (Join to see)
Pardon me for being rude, but you're going to call him out for "voting you down" after everything he said without any type of response?
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SSG Cliff Daniels
That's why you'll make a great 1Sg Jason. Proud to have served with you.
Rusty Nellz
Rusty Nellz
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