Posted on Feb 14, 2018
What happens if you quit airborne school as an officer or refuse to go?
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Posted 7 y ago
Responses: 18
SPC Norman-I've been following your posts of late, and largely staying "out" of the discussions since Army personnel would be the best to advise on questions concerning Army career topics. That said, I also deduce you're ultimate goal is pursuing a commission, and you are looking at all angles, positive and negative. In that sense, I may be able to share some insight into this question, and hope my Army peers will tolerate my interjection.
I'll share my "story", and hope it helps you with a number of considerations. Please forgive the long winded-ness.
First off, it is generally known that "quitting" any form of training, especially voluntary training, is basically career suicide. Sure, there is a process; no one's going to take you out back and give you a blindfold and a cigarette...but sooner or later, the decision will come back on your career. In some cases, the results may be immediate; in others, you may languish for years until a critical career milestone is denied, and you find yourself on the outs.
In 2000, I was accepted into training as a naval flight officer (the guy in the back). This came after four years of difficult work to receive my commission, during which time, I had upheld a satisfactory record, stayed out of trouble, and generally "hit the wickets". This training had four parts; API, Primary, Intermediate and Advanced. I made it through the initial "weed out" at API (intensive classroom, simulator and water survival courses), and graduated from Primary (flight syllabus including basic airmanship, navigation and systems). During this time, I worked hard, stayed out of trouble on and off base, and even received high marks. At the end of Primary, and before commencing Intermediate, I chose to "DOR" or Drop on Request. My reasons were simple: I was having great difficulty doing the mathematics involved with navigating from the "back seat", and falling behind the aircraft, fast. After speaking at length with my immediate superior officers, CO and the command career counselling people. I was "assured" that the decision would not negatively impact me, and that I would be soon transferred to the Surface Warfare pipeline (where I ultimately wanted to go).
Instead, I was first assigned to an accident investigation team; this literally meant I would participate in a crash investigation involving two officers I knew personally. I came in contact with reports and evidence describing the horrific circumstances of their demise, flew simulations of the incident, and assisted the board in determination of fault. Despite long hours, challenging work and the difficulty of confronting the implications...my immediate superior gave me such a bad FITREP, his senior rejected it and performed his own, more favorable one. After 9/11, I sought out and volunteered for immediate deployment, both to "do my bit", and hopefully erase the blot on my record. Two sea tours, multiple qualifications (CICWO, OOD, HCO, TAO(u/i), FPO, etc), stellar FITREPS, and even a Navy Comm. later, I was still selected for the IRAD (force reduction) against my will, and without even so much as an interview. My CO and even the One-Star fought it...but it was done.
A little less than two years later, with the assistance of my new Reserve COC, I managed to volunteer for mobilization as a foreign military advisor to the ANA. This was 24 month orders, including training at Fort Dix, then with the 1ID at Fort Riley, before being assigned down-range to an ANA ETT unit in East Afghanistan for 12 months. During my tour, I was the S-3 for the unit, planned and led armed convoys, took enemy fire, and left with an MSM and promotion to O-4. More importantly, I felt I returned with my honor restored.
However, when I returned, no realistic path for staying active was offered. I had an "inside" senior working with MILPERS to solve the problem (O-6) who finally advised me that quitting flight school all those years before simply made getting "back on track" impossible. To make matters worse, I couldn't land a permanent billet within the SELRES...so I was sent back to the IRR. Within another year, I was offered an Honorable Discharge.
Now, I work as a salesman, sit in a cubicle, and though the "new life" has its rewards (a family, home and success in a second career)...there are days when I truly "miss" no longer being a serving officer.
I've not shared this as a "sob story", and yes...a lot has changed in two decades, and the Army undoubtedly has different policies. What I do want to convey is one salient point: If you engage upon this path...give it everything you have, right up to the last. I miss my military career, but honestly cannot fault the Navy for its decision. As CPT Goenner accurately stated, the service, your peers and your men MUST have confidence in you. It doesn't matter if you're "100%" 364 days out of the year if you're not present the one time it matters in combat. Whether you go into a line branch, Medical, Legal, Supply, etc...much is, and should be expected of an officer.
I wish you nothing but success and a rewarding future career, whichever path you ultimately select.
I'll share my "story", and hope it helps you with a number of considerations. Please forgive the long winded-ness.
First off, it is generally known that "quitting" any form of training, especially voluntary training, is basically career suicide. Sure, there is a process; no one's going to take you out back and give you a blindfold and a cigarette...but sooner or later, the decision will come back on your career. In some cases, the results may be immediate; in others, you may languish for years until a critical career milestone is denied, and you find yourself on the outs.
In 2000, I was accepted into training as a naval flight officer (the guy in the back). This came after four years of difficult work to receive my commission, during which time, I had upheld a satisfactory record, stayed out of trouble, and generally "hit the wickets". This training had four parts; API, Primary, Intermediate and Advanced. I made it through the initial "weed out" at API (intensive classroom, simulator and water survival courses), and graduated from Primary (flight syllabus including basic airmanship, navigation and systems). During this time, I worked hard, stayed out of trouble on and off base, and even received high marks. At the end of Primary, and before commencing Intermediate, I chose to "DOR" or Drop on Request. My reasons were simple: I was having great difficulty doing the mathematics involved with navigating from the "back seat", and falling behind the aircraft, fast. After speaking at length with my immediate superior officers, CO and the command career counselling people. I was "assured" that the decision would not negatively impact me, and that I would be soon transferred to the Surface Warfare pipeline (where I ultimately wanted to go).
Instead, I was first assigned to an accident investigation team; this literally meant I would participate in a crash investigation involving two officers I knew personally. I came in contact with reports and evidence describing the horrific circumstances of their demise, flew simulations of the incident, and assisted the board in determination of fault. Despite long hours, challenging work and the difficulty of confronting the implications...my immediate superior gave me such a bad FITREP, his senior rejected it and performed his own, more favorable one. After 9/11, I sought out and volunteered for immediate deployment, both to "do my bit", and hopefully erase the blot on my record. Two sea tours, multiple qualifications (CICWO, OOD, HCO, TAO(u/i), FPO, etc), stellar FITREPS, and even a Navy Comm. later, I was still selected for the IRAD (force reduction) against my will, and without even so much as an interview. My CO and even the One-Star fought it...but it was done.
A little less than two years later, with the assistance of my new Reserve COC, I managed to volunteer for mobilization as a foreign military advisor to the ANA. This was 24 month orders, including training at Fort Dix, then with the 1ID at Fort Riley, before being assigned down-range to an ANA ETT unit in East Afghanistan for 12 months. During my tour, I was the S-3 for the unit, planned and led armed convoys, took enemy fire, and left with an MSM and promotion to O-4. More importantly, I felt I returned with my honor restored.
However, when I returned, no realistic path for staying active was offered. I had an "inside" senior working with MILPERS to solve the problem (O-6) who finally advised me that quitting flight school all those years before simply made getting "back on track" impossible. To make matters worse, I couldn't land a permanent billet within the SELRES...so I was sent back to the IRR. Within another year, I was offered an Honorable Discharge.
Now, I work as a salesman, sit in a cubicle, and though the "new life" has its rewards (a family, home and success in a second career)...there are days when I truly "miss" no longer being a serving officer.
I've not shared this as a "sob story", and yes...a lot has changed in two decades, and the Army undoubtedly has different policies. What I do want to convey is one salient point: If you engage upon this path...give it everything you have, right up to the last. I miss my military career, but honestly cannot fault the Navy for its decision. As CPT Goenner accurately stated, the service, your peers and your men MUST have confidence in you. It doesn't matter if you're "100%" 364 days out of the year if you're not present the one time it matters in combat. Whether you go into a line branch, Medical, Legal, Supply, etc...much is, and should be expected of an officer.
I wish you nothing but success and a rewarding future career, whichever path you ultimately select.
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MAJ (Join to see)
Sir you are spot on! Regardless of the branch of service your in you hit it in the money! I was in a similar position and went to Ranger school and didn't quit. I was an enlisted medic and it catapulted my career and even helped me get into OCS.. no matter what branch or what you do in the military don't quit!!
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If you refuse to go, you miss an opportunity to better your OER. If you take a spot and quit, it Will be noted on your training history. More importantly though, you fail the soldier who would've gone and passed in your place.
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Well, the impact depends on whether or not it's specifically tied to a career-enhancing assignment. It's never a good thing to refuse it, but circumstances can make it a fatal decision.
Let's look at the best case. If you're in a branch that doesn't have many slots within an Airborne unit (like a Chaplain, or a Physician, or a Dietitian, etc.), refusing a slot or dropping out of the school will only have a short-term impact on your reputation. If you fail out between schools, that can fly below the radar screen for the long-term implications on your career potential.
Let's look at the worst case. If you're in a branch with lots of Airborne slots, specifically if you are targeted to step into an Airborne slot, and you fail out or refuse to attend, THAT can be fatal. You can miss out on choice, career-enhancing assignments, you can receive poor OERs, etc. That most certainly will come back to haunt you on promotion boards.
So, it's not a clear-cut answer, but I would never recommend anyone turn down that opportunity. And, once in it, failure is not an option.
Let's look at the best case. If you're in a branch that doesn't have many slots within an Airborne unit (like a Chaplain, or a Physician, or a Dietitian, etc.), refusing a slot or dropping out of the school will only have a short-term impact on your reputation. If you fail out between schools, that can fly below the radar screen for the long-term implications on your career potential.
Let's look at the worst case. If you're in a branch with lots of Airborne slots, specifically if you are targeted to step into an Airborne slot, and you fail out or refuse to attend, THAT can be fatal. You can miss out on choice, career-enhancing assignments, you can receive poor OERs, etc. That most certainly will come back to haunt you on promotion boards.
So, it's not a clear-cut answer, but I would never recommend anyone turn down that opportunity. And, once in it, failure is not an option.
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SSG Robert Webster
CPT Lawrence Cable - True, that is the goal, but that is not what you stated or implied.
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CPT Lawrence Cable
SSG Robert Webster - OK, I was writing that doing other things, so let me restate that a bit more accurately, "The 10th Mountain expected all line company Officers and Senior NCO's to be Ranger qualified, so a tabbed Officer or NCO would be more likely to get that assignment than a non tabbed Office/NCO."
Is that better?
I believe that would be a reasonably accurate assessment of the period when we were around. In my class, the LT's that got the Ranger School slots were not scheduled to PCS to the 1st, 3rd or 4th Infantry.
And I get your point. The fact is that in the average Ranger Class of 290 soldiers, 200 of those are from IBLOC (or IOBC in my day)and enlisted from the 75th, leaving the last 90 slots for everyone else. So even the goal of a Ranger qualified NCO and Officer in every Infantry Company, especially during the period when the 82nd, 101st, 6th, 7th. 10th, 25th and 173 brigade were all competing for those NCO's and Officers, was numerically impossible.
Wasn't the whole purpose of the Light Leaders Course to offer Ranger like training to all the guys that couldn't get slotted?
Is that better?
I believe that would be a reasonably accurate assessment of the period when we were around. In my class, the LT's that got the Ranger School slots were not scheduled to PCS to the 1st, 3rd or 4th Infantry.
And I get your point. The fact is that in the average Ranger Class of 290 soldiers, 200 of those are from IBLOC (or IOBC in my day)and enlisted from the 75th, leaving the last 90 slots for everyone else. So even the goal of a Ranger qualified NCO and Officer in every Infantry Company, especially during the period when the 82nd, 101st, 6th, 7th. 10th, 25th and 173 brigade were all competing for those NCO's and Officers, was numerically impossible.
Wasn't the whole purpose of the Light Leaders Course to offer Ranger like training to all the guys that couldn't get slotted?
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1SG Marc Jensen
CPT Lawrence Cable - Sir, my experience shows that most Infantry units prefer to have every PL and NCO ranger qualified and unit leadership is often prejudicial when slotting. That said, every Infantry unit MTOE has both ranger and non-ranger leadership positions across their formation; preference doesn't equal requirement.
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CPT Lawrence Cable
1SG Marc Jensen - That was my original point, or at least for the line companies. I commissioned in 1985, during the height of the expansion of the light units. My classmates that were slotted and graduated Ranger School went to the Light Divisions and Airborne units, the rest of us assigned elsewhere. I was told that the NCO positions were assigned in a like manner, Tabbed NCO getting first shoot. Now I understand that it isn't a real possibility, any more than it is for every Infantry Officer to be tabbed, or at least not until they greatly expand Ranger School, which I don't ever see happening.
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