Posted on Dec 8, 2015
What if: What do you think the national reaction would have been had a Carrier been lost in Hurricane Joaquin, rather than the SS El Faro?
21.5K
120
59
22
22
0
What would be your personal reaction?
I was responding to a misguided soul in another thread who thinks that all Sailors at sea are behind the lines. He said that in response to my statement that there are no REMF's on board a ship. Everyone fights the ship, from the cooks to the medics to the Captain. I detailed many of the dangers Sailors face, but I'll just focus on the largest for this thread: Mother Nature.
As a Merchant Marine, I've been on ships massively larger, by deadweight tonnage, than Carriers. The largest I've been on approached 300k deadweight tons, loaded. 3 times the size of, say, the USS Ronald Reagan.
I was on her in the Bering Sea during a 100 year-storm. And she was being tossed like a twig in 30'+ waves (Remember, a 30 foot wave means a 60 foot trough. That's a LOT of vertical movement). Even with her bow into the waves, she was still rolling 22-29 degrees sideways...and she only gets about 31. She was rolling hard enough that there was what seemed like a 10-minute hang on each side (because you're scared shitless), but in reality was probably only 1 second or so. I personally was chanting to myself each time, 'Come back, baby, roll back'. I suspect I wasn't alone. Here's the kicker, and why I'm using this to illustrate the point of this thread: we survived that, and ships do all over the world frequently, for one simple, elegant reason: We never lost power and went sideways to the waves. If we had, that giant ship, that titanic object, would have suffered the fate of the SS El Faro. Every single engineer on that ship was up, on watch or not, and in machinery spaces. And everyone not involved in navigation was down there with them to do whatever it took to keep those engines running.
So if your initial reaction to my headline was 'That's preposterous, that would never happen to a US Navy ship', you need to re-evaluate that thought. Navy ships have mechanical failures all the time. I've personally seen the USS Long Beach lose rudder control while alongside my ship, and if that had happened at the time and place of the El Faro, she would have went down, too. Just like the Reagan or, really, any surface ship would. Mother Nature is a stone cold bitch, and if you do the slightest thing wrong at just the right time, she will make you pay.
So: if it had been a Carrier that fateful day, what do you think the National reaction would be? What would be yours?
I think the initial reaction would be outrage, because this country hasn't suffered Naval losses like that since the USS Frank Evans was cut in two by an Aussie Carrier in 1969. Today's public just isn't used to the idea of the Navy losing ships (though every actual Sailor is keenly aware of the perpetual possibility). This would be unfair, in my mind. Sailors aren't any more or less important than Soldiers and Airmen. But the public is jaded from 15 years of war, hearing about those sacrifices. I think everyone in the CoC from Sec Def down loses their job if this happens. And I think the President is irreparably damaged. The optics would kill his term, imo.
Personally, I'd be devastated. I'd empathize. My entire adult life has been spent at sea, so I consider everyone upon it my brothers and sisters. I friggen teared up at the Canadian Merchant Marine memorial, for pete's sake.
What are your thoughts?
I was responding to a misguided soul in another thread who thinks that all Sailors at sea are behind the lines. He said that in response to my statement that there are no REMF's on board a ship. Everyone fights the ship, from the cooks to the medics to the Captain. I detailed many of the dangers Sailors face, but I'll just focus on the largest for this thread: Mother Nature.
As a Merchant Marine, I've been on ships massively larger, by deadweight tonnage, than Carriers. The largest I've been on approached 300k deadweight tons, loaded. 3 times the size of, say, the USS Ronald Reagan.
I was on her in the Bering Sea during a 100 year-storm. And she was being tossed like a twig in 30'+ waves (Remember, a 30 foot wave means a 60 foot trough. That's a LOT of vertical movement). Even with her bow into the waves, she was still rolling 22-29 degrees sideways...and she only gets about 31. She was rolling hard enough that there was what seemed like a 10-minute hang on each side (because you're scared shitless), but in reality was probably only 1 second or so. I personally was chanting to myself each time, 'Come back, baby, roll back'. I suspect I wasn't alone. Here's the kicker, and why I'm using this to illustrate the point of this thread: we survived that, and ships do all over the world frequently, for one simple, elegant reason: We never lost power and went sideways to the waves. If we had, that giant ship, that titanic object, would have suffered the fate of the SS El Faro. Every single engineer on that ship was up, on watch or not, and in machinery spaces. And everyone not involved in navigation was down there with them to do whatever it took to keep those engines running.
So if your initial reaction to my headline was 'That's preposterous, that would never happen to a US Navy ship', you need to re-evaluate that thought. Navy ships have mechanical failures all the time. I've personally seen the USS Long Beach lose rudder control while alongside my ship, and if that had happened at the time and place of the El Faro, she would have went down, too. Just like the Reagan or, really, any surface ship would. Mother Nature is a stone cold bitch, and if you do the slightest thing wrong at just the right time, she will make you pay.
So: if it had been a Carrier that fateful day, what do you think the National reaction would be? What would be yours?
I think the initial reaction would be outrage, because this country hasn't suffered Naval losses like that since the USS Frank Evans was cut in two by an Aussie Carrier in 1969. Today's public just isn't used to the idea of the Navy losing ships (though every actual Sailor is keenly aware of the perpetual possibility). This would be unfair, in my mind. Sailors aren't any more or less important than Soldiers and Airmen. But the public is jaded from 15 years of war, hearing about those sacrifices. I think everyone in the CoC from Sec Def down loses their job if this happens. And I think the President is irreparably damaged. The optics would kill his term, imo.
Personally, I'd be devastated. I'd empathize. My entire adult life has been spent at sea, so I consider everyone upon it my brothers and sisters. I friggen teared up at the Canadian Merchant Marine memorial, for pete's sake.
What are your thoughts?
Edited >1 y ago
Posted 9 y ago
Responses: 26
I didn't join the navy for one major reason, if the vehicle I'm riding in gets hit by an IED, I likely won't have to fight to continue breathing! Just watching Pearl Harbor aggravates my PTSD!
(7)
(0)
SN Greg Wright
MSG Tim Gray Most ground-pounders tout themselves only, as worthy of being warriors. (Well. That's my experience. It may not be universal.)
To have one give respect, where respect is due (ie, thankful that SOMEONE is taking the risk of having home and limb sink beneath the waves) is not only rare, but inspiring. At least to me. It tells me that some of you get it. You will certainly face more bullets fired at your person than I ever will. And I will be subject to Mother Nature's will more than you ever will (speaking of mortality. I'm sure your chances of being rained upon, or freezing your ass off, are as great as mine).
To have one give respect, where respect is due (ie, thankful that SOMEONE is taking the risk of having home and limb sink beneath the waves) is not only rare, but inspiring. At least to me. It tells me that some of you get it. You will certainly face more bullets fired at your person than I ever will. And I will be subject to Mother Nature's will more than you ever will (speaking of mortality. I'm sure your chances of being rained upon, or freezing your ass off, are as great as mine).
(3)
(0)
PO3 Bob Walsh
MSG Tim Gray, A neighbor of mine was in the Army, and was in most of the major invasions in the Pacific in WWII. I commented on my feelings that what we did was minor compared to their engagement with the enemy. While talking about my duty on a Seaplane Tender, AVP-39, and learning that we were loaded with Aviation Fuel Oil, And Ammunition, to refuel and rearm Seaplanes, he remarked, "How could you sleep on that ship, it's like a bomb. I could not do that."
I think, GOD, Knows Just where to put us.
I think, GOD, Knows Just where to put us.
(3)
(0)
After reading your post, I'm affirmed that naval service is not for me..... ;o)
But to your original question: losing a carrier (or any capital ship) in a storm would be a major blow. Not only in loss of life, but loss of strategic capability. Carriers are one of the nation's premier force projection platforms, and are very, VERY expensive. They are a finite resource and the loss of one currently would take years to replace.
But to your original question: losing a carrier (or any capital ship) in a storm would be a major blow. Not only in loss of life, but loss of strategic capability. Carriers are one of the nation's premier force projection platforms, and are very, VERY expensive. They are a finite resource and the loss of one currently would take years to replace.
(5)
(0)
PO3 Bob Walsh
I suspect the gap can be quickly filled by ; Guided Missile Submarines, and Guided Missile Surface vessels. There has been talk of the Carrier going the way of the Battle Ship. Is it necessary to risk a multi million dollar aircraft, and highly skilled pilot When the Job can be done by missiles. We have satellite photography, and possibly drones to observe the target. It seems the only thing constant is change.
(1)
(0)
SN Greg Wright
When I was on the Nimitz, there were a few times off the coast of Australia when we were in rough seas and I could feel the ship rocking and rolling. Feeling that on a Carrier is quite unique and definitely shoots the pucker/oh shit factor up 1,000%.
I also remember standing watch on the bridge wing of the USS Halsey (CG23) many moons ago when I was a clueless 18yo Deck Seaman. The seas we were transiting were so rough that weather decks were completely secured. We were rolling all over the place. I don't know degrees because I wasn't privy to that information. What I DO know is that the waves we were crashing through were making their way all the way up to the bridge (03 level) and I was constantly getting splashed in the face (so staying awake and alert was not an issue that time, LOL).
Anybody who says that Sailors and sailors don't face any real danger or "Navy ships would never sink!!!" don't know WTF they're talking about and I challenge them to ride along with a ship transiting through the Indian Ocean during typhoon season.
When I was on the Nimitz, there were a few times off the coast of Australia when we were in rough seas and I could feel the ship rocking and rolling. Feeling that on a Carrier is quite unique and definitely shoots the pucker/oh shit factor up 1,000%.
I also remember standing watch on the bridge wing of the USS Halsey (CG23) many moons ago when I was a clueless 18yo Deck Seaman. The seas we were transiting were so rough that weather decks were completely secured. We were rolling all over the place. I don't know degrees because I wasn't privy to that information. What I DO know is that the waves we were crashing through were making their way all the way up to the bridge (03 level) and I was constantly getting splashed in the face (so staying awake and alert was not an issue that time, LOL).
Anybody who says that Sailors and sailors don't face any real danger or "Navy ships would never sink!!!" don't know WTF they're talking about and I challenge them to ride along with a ship transiting through the Indian Ocean during typhoon season.
(5)
(0)
SN Greg Wright
PO1 John Miller - Haha yeah!
I once saw a UFO down around the Panama Canal. I'm not saying it was aliens. But as someone who'd been stationed on a major AF base (Yokota), I'd seen every kind of aircraft there was. And this wasn't that. I know I wasn't seeing things, because the other two members of the bridge team saw it too, standing as slack-jawed as I was. (There's generally only 3 people on the bridge on civilian ships).
And yeah, the radio provided lots of comic relief, lol. At least until the CG calls us up and asks why we have an EPIRB activation. Had that happen a couple of times.
I once saw a UFO down around the Panama Canal. I'm not saying it was aliens. But as someone who'd been stationed on a major AF base (Yokota), I'd seen every kind of aircraft there was. And this wasn't that. I know I wasn't seeing things, because the other two members of the bridge team saw it too, standing as slack-jawed as I was. (There's generally only 3 people on the bridge on civilian ships).
And yeah, the radio provided lots of comic relief, lol. At least until the CG calls us up and asks why we have an EPIRB activation. Had that happen a couple of times.
(1)
(0)
PO1 John Miller
SN Greg Wright
I too have seen those UFO's. Stars don't flash different colors and zigzag all over the place. I don't care WHAT that OOD said.
I too have seen those UFO's. Stars don't flash different colors and zigzag all over the place. I don't care WHAT that OOD said.
(1)
(0)
SN Greg Wright
PO1 John Miller - Mine went in a straight line, but too low and too fast. And, the light we could see...hmm. Imagine one of those flourescent tube lights, the long ones. It was continuous, and way, way too big to be any aircraft I'd ever seen. And, direction of travel was broadside to the length of the light. In other words, it wasn't travelling in the direction of either end of the light. And it went horizon-to-horizon in something like 15 seconds. I was roughtly 60' above the surface (tanker bridge), so my horizons were probably about 30 miles. I don't know of any human machine that can fly that fast, that low, and that silent.
(1)
(0)
PO1 John Miller
SN Greg Wright
Mine was flying very erratically. I've never seen a human machine that maneuverable!
Mine was flying very erratically. I've never seen a human machine that maneuverable!
(0)
(0)
Read This Next