Posted on Feb 3, 2014
SFC PATRIOT Launching Station Enhanced Operator/Maintainer
25.8K
38
33
4
4
0
What do you consider mass punishment.  Do to recent events the question has been raised and in an attempt to find the regulation governing this I came up dry.  So my question is what is considered mass punishment vs special unit training, and where can I find it in the regulations?
Posted in these groups: 1145cb3 PunishmentTrain2 Training
Avatar feed
Responses: 19
SSgt Forensic Meteorological Consultant
0
0
0
It reminds of me of when my adopted daughter was in elementary school and the teacher sent a letter home about a mass punishment    I told her that her spelling is bad with several words spelled incorrectly.  But the bottom line is "they shouldn't be punished en masse for what a couple of well-know punks were doing.   She was kind of shocked but I found it ironic.
(0)
Comment
(0)
Avatar small
SSG Zachery Mitchell
0
0
0
Mass punishment is ineffective and affects moral. Mass punishment to me is punishing everyone in the unit for the careless acts of one or two Soldiers. I don't agree with mass punishment. Never have. If I have a Soldier that makes a mistake or gets into trouble I am going to punish just that Soldier accordingly, not every Soldier in my shop. I have seen many incidents that have resulted in mass punishment throughout my career and every time it has ended negatively.
(0)
Comment
(0)
Avatar small
SGM Senior Intelligence Sergeant
0
0
0

I don't believe in "mass punishment."  I also can not find any regulation that states you can not legally or morally conduct these excercises.  I do challenge you though to change your terminology to corrective training and team building excercises. 

 

If you are called on the carpet about why you called the entire barracks in on a Saturday at 0600 to have a GI Party it is not because SPC """"" did not clean his or her room, it is because you found the common areas and rooms to be in an unsatisfactory state that was already laid out in your initial counselings and SOPs and after you gave several warnings, verbal or written, the situation did not correct itself.  How else would one correct a dirty barracks?

 

Team building excercises are also a good way to encourage team work to correct a deficiency.  If you have a Soldier that is not able to stay with a formation the onus should be placed upon the formation to motivate said Soldier.  If we as an organization are unable to motivate our battle buddies, slow the pace, or work together to complete a task we must therefore continue to train on such a task until that time that we as an organization are trained proficiently enough to complete said task in the prescribed time in the prescribed conditions.

 

The punishment merely needs to fit the deficiency.  I believe we as NCOs correct deficiencies and officers dole out punishment.

 

(0)
Comment
(0)
Avatar small
CPT Aaron Kletzing
0
0
0
Here's one scenario where I can see mass punishment being effective, in theory. This did happen to me. Scenario -- You are in basic. Day 1: Your buddy shows up late to first formation. Your buddy gets smoked by himself. Day 2: No change. He shows up late to first formation again. Your whole platoon gets smoked because of this one guy. Day 3: He shows up early to first formation, squared away. I'm not suggesting mass punishment works for everything -- or that it always works for one thing -- but it was effective in this one common scenario. Thoughts?
(0)
Comment
(0)
SSG Christopher Freeman
SSG Christopher Freeman
12 y
In that instance, it was very effective. There are times when mass punishment can fix these issues. Think of it as a way to get everyone squared away. It encourages you to check and double check everything so mass punishment won't happen again. I know we should always check, but sometimes, we forget or any other number of reasons come up.
(0)
Reply
(0)
Avatar small
SFC Stephen P.
0
0
0
The distinction is difficult to describe without examples.

If it is designed or intended to frustrate, fatigue, or annoy, then it is punishment. If it addresses an actual organizational deficiency by eliminating the cause, then it is not punishment.

Many moons ago, my company's barracks experienced a rash of fire alarm pranks. At one point, the alarm system completely broke. The 1SG compensated by establishing a fire watch. This was not a punishment, but a force protection measure. Had the alarm been FMC, then a fire watch would have been a punitive reaction. If the command had established security patrols to prevent misuse of the alarms, it would have been protection of mission critical assets; if the patrols were conducted around the parking lot, it would have been punitive.

Subjectivity is not always a bad thing.
(0)
Comment
(0)
Avatar small
SPC Squad Member
0
0
0
Will an older SM please distinguishing the difference between the two for me if they don't mind? In my exponential amount of time served (sarcasm) I've heard the terms "punishment" and "corrective training" used interchangeably. I find it a tad confusing sometimes trying to differentiate the two when most NCOs I run into will use one in substitution of the other.
(0)
Comment
(0)
CW2 Officer In Charge
CW2 (Join to see)
12 y
In my experience, punishment is either judicial or non-judicial (Courts Martial or Article 15). Corrective training is what is used to correct a certain issue. Expample: If you show up to PT formation with one long sock and one short sock on (I've seen it happen), corrective training may be to write a 500 word essay on proper wear of the military uniform or to show up every 2 hours in a different uniform for  a uniform inspection. It more or less should "fit the crime". If you consistently show up in the wrong uniform and fail to comply with AR 670-1, an Article 15 may be in order and thus you are punished for the offense(s).
(0)
Reply
(0)
SPC Squad Member
SPC (Join to see)
12 y
Thank you SSG, but what about a soldier that doesn't stand at parade rest and gets smoked? The issue is not their PT but their attitude and level of respect. It seems like punishment to me but they cite it as "corrective training." Thoughts?
(0)
Reply
(0)
1SG Visual Information Operations Chief
1SG (Join to see)
12 y
I concur with Lt Youngblood punishment is more in-line with administrative action, Art 15s, forfeiture of pay, extra duty, anything impose by the commander.

Now corrective training is what us NCOs do. You are late for formation. Corrective training you shall report 30 minutes early to formation and stand in parade rest until formation starts as the NCO giving the corrective training I will ensure you are there on time or make you write a 800 word essay in 24hrs explaining the importance of accountability. 

(0)
Reply
(0)
Avatar small
SFC A.M. Drake
0
0
0
SFC Sapikowski,

Give it time other SM's will answer your question to the best of their ability, it takes time for people to read whatever is important to them.
(0)
Comment
(0)
Avatar small
CW3 Network Architect
0
0
0
I'd say mass punishment would be if one person screws up, and the corrective action is applied to the entire group.  What's your point?
(0)
Comment
(0)
SFC PATRIOT Launching Station Enhanced Operator/Maintainer
SFC (Join to see)
12 y
well can anyone show me where to find the difference in the two and a "book" definition
(0)
Reply
(0)
Avatar small
SPC Brendan Kearns
0
0
0
Edited 12 y ago
personally i feel punish the individual, because with the no hazing rules today anybody that try's to correct the SM for the groups faults will get an IG complaint 
(0)
Comment
(0)
SFC PATRIOT Launching Station Enhanced Operator/Maintainer
SFC (Join to see)
12 y
Well I wasn't asking if it should be used or not but... 
(0)
Reply
(0)
Avatar small

Join nearly 2 million former and current members of the US military, just like you.

close