Posted on Jan 7, 2024
What is the regulation and/or proper method to hold a formation with officers and enlisted standing in the ranks?
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This is an oddball and would probably only happen in the Army Reserve...
Many of the units I've been in are unique in that they have many officers and NCOs and few E1-4 so vastly different from the typical Army structure. These are often headed by an O5-6, an O4-5 XO, and then an E7-8 as the senior NCO. If there is an accountability formation, it is handled by the senior NCO but often has officers standing in the ranks. This seems to be a very incorrect way of doing business and goes against the rank structure. My specific thinking is that an NCO, no matter the rank or experience, should not be calling a group of officers to attention even if that NCO is part of the leadership team. There are many other ways to handle this appropriately, such as the senior officer calling the formation and then turning it over to the NCO and my main concern is the perception and impact this has on the junior officers in the formation.
Of course, there isn't anything in the drill and ceremony reg I assume because this just isn't a thing the Army assumes would happen.
Has anyone had any experience with this type of formation and how has it been handled in your units?
Many of the units I've been in are unique in that they have many officers and NCOs and few E1-4 so vastly different from the typical Army structure. These are often headed by an O5-6, an O4-5 XO, and then an E7-8 as the senior NCO. If there is an accountability formation, it is handled by the senior NCO but often has officers standing in the ranks. This seems to be a very incorrect way of doing business and goes against the rank structure. My specific thinking is that an NCO, no matter the rank or experience, should not be calling a group of officers to attention even if that NCO is part of the leadership team. There are many other ways to handle this appropriately, such as the senior officer calling the formation and then turning it over to the NCO and my main concern is the perception and impact this has on the junior officers in the formation.
Of course, there isn't anything in the drill and ceremony reg I assume because this just isn't a thing the Army assumes would happen.
Has anyone had any experience with this type of formation and how has it been handled in your units?
Formation
Army Regulations
Army Reserve Elements
Posted 11 mo ago
Responses: 14
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Sir,
That NCO is the Commander's right-hand man or woman. They act with the authority of the CO.
Where the Officers of a unit stand in formation is.... wherever the gosh darned Commander tells them to.
I have been in MANY units like you mention. In one instance I was in the HHC for the post - the 2-star Commanding General was in the Company - as were all of his field grade staff members. And at morning (accountability) formation, the Company 1SG (E8) called the Company to attention, and gave the directive "Receive the Report." Those Section SGTs (E7-E8) then turned and ordered a report - from more NCOs. Our Junior Officers (2LT - MAJ) were standing in the ranks. Our Senior Officers (LTC - COL, and yes, the MG when he showed up) stood behind the "Platoon formation" and did not participate in the report. But you can be darned sure they came to attention, parade rest, etc. when the 1SG Commanded the formation.
That Commander is the COMMANDER - even if members of the formation outrank him or her. And that 1SG is *THE* 1SG - regardless of the ranks of the folks in the Company.
It truly baffles me - and saddens me a bit - that a Captain would have to ask this question.
That NCO is the Commander's right-hand man or woman. They act with the authority of the CO.
Where the Officers of a unit stand in formation is.... wherever the gosh darned Commander tells them to.
I have been in MANY units like you mention. In one instance I was in the HHC for the post - the 2-star Commanding General was in the Company - as were all of his field grade staff members. And at morning (accountability) formation, the Company 1SG (E8) called the Company to attention, and gave the directive "Receive the Report." Those Section SGTs (E7-E8) then turned and ordered a report - from more NCOs. Our Junior Officers (2LT - MAJ) were standing in the ranks. Our Senior Officers (LTC - COL, and yes, the MG when he showed up) stood behind the "Platoon formation" and did not participate in the report. But you can be darned sure they came to attention, parade rest, etc. when the 1SG Commanded the formation.
That Commander is the COMMANDER - even if members of the formation outrank him or her. And that 1SG is *THE* 1SG - regardless of the ranks of the folks in the Company.
It truly baffles me - and saddens me a bit - that a Captain would have to ask this question.
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I miss when they beat D&C into our heads way back when (that's the senior officer version of "I had to walk to school ... in the snow .. uphill .. both ways!").
The BLUF statement is that officers are members of that unit. There is an officer in charge of that unit/element, an NCO in charge of that unit/element, and everyone else. So yes, if the NCO in charge of the unit calls it to attention, it doesn't mean "everybody but the officers, come to the position of attention".
Regarding where it's addressed, it is covered in the Army's drill and ceremonies publication (FM 3-21.5... err.. TC 3-21.5* now).
There are only a few key positions in the "world of D&C" for units/subunits, and those are (primarily) the officer in charge of the element (Commander at all echelons, CDR of troops, Platoon Leader, etc.), the NCO in charge of the element (CSM, 1SG, PSG, etc.), and (if applicable) the XO/adjutant.
When it comes to an element, individuals will fall into one of three categories - The officer in charge of an element, the NCO in charge of the element, and everyone else. The officer in charge of the higher element passes formation command to the officer/NCO in charge of the lower element. When an NCO is in charge of a higher element, they pass formation commands onto NCOs in charge of lower elements.
As the TC points out, "Since all situations or eventualities pertaining to drill and ceremonies cannot be foreseen, commanders may find it necessary to adjust the procedures to local conditions."
I've seen "commanders" of those 'officer heavy' units have defined what the sub-elements of the formation are in various ways (usually by some 'functional element' organization instead of everyone being organized by 'administrative element'). I put commander in quotes because in many cases, especially in the reserve component when they create an ad-hoc organizational structure for IMA positions, the 'officer in charge' is a designated individual (usually the ranking officer, but not always) rather than one that actually has any command authority over the element.
HOW are those sub-elements defined varies - that's up to the commander and the possibilities are endless when you start getting into the 'non-traditional' organizations.
One thing I have seen that is along the lines of "having the officers stand in their own spot if they aren't in command of an element", is described in the TC for 'additional officers', " Other officers assigned or attached, who have no prescribed position within the formation, form evenly to the right and left of the executive officer in a line formation; they fall out and form in one or two ranks at correct distance to the rear of the first sergeant and executive officer when the company forms in column".
The intent of the "additional officers" is for those that are not organic to the organization who have been assigned/attached to it and figuring out where they go if they aren't part of one of the elements that is in the formation. However, I have seen some of the 'non-traditional' units have officers stand in one or two ranks to the rear of the larger formation. They are still an element in the larger formation though.
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* TC 3-21.5 (Drill and Ceremonies) - https://armypubs.army.mil/epubs/DR_pubs/DR_a/ARN32297-TC_3-21.5-000-WEB-1.pdf
The BLUF statement is that officers are members of that unit. There is an officer in charge of that unit/element, an NCO in charge of that unit/element, and everyone else. So yes, if the NCO in charge of the unit calls it to attention, it doesn't mean "everybody but the officers, come to the position of attention".
Regarding where it's addressed, it is covered in the Army's drill and ceremonies publication (FM 3-21.5... err.. TC 3-21.5* now).
There are only a few key positions in the "world of D&C" for units/subunits, and those are (primarily) the officer in charge of the element (Commander at all echelons, CDR of troops, Platoon Leader, etc.), the NCO in charge of the element (CSM, 1SG, PSG, etc.), and (if applicable) the XO/adjutant.
When it comes to an element, individuals will fall into one of three categories - The officer in charge of an element, the NCO in charge of the element, and everyone else. The officer in charge of the higher element passes formation command to the officer/NCO in charge of the lower element. When an NCO is in charge of a higher element, they pass formation commands onto NCOs in charge of lower elements.
As the TC points out, "Since all situations or eventualities pertaining to drill and ceremonies cannot be foreseen, commanders may find it necessary to adjust the procedures to local conditions."
I've seen "commanders" of those 'officer heavy' units have defined what the sub-elements of the formation are in various ways (usually by some 'functional element' organization instead of everyone being organized by 'administrative element'). I put commander in quotes because in many cases, especially in the reserve component when they create an ad-hoc organizational structure for IMA positions, the 'officer in charge' is a designated individual (usually the ranking officer, but not always) rather than one that actually has any command authority over the element.
HOW are those sub-elements defined varies - that's up to the commander and the possibilities are endless when you start getting into the 'non-traditional' organizations.
One thing I have seen that is along the lines of "having the officers stand in their own spot if they aren't in command of an element", is described in the TC for 'additional officers', " Other officers assigned or attached, who have no prescribed position within the formation, form evenly to the right and left of the executive officer in a line formation; they fall out and form in one or two ranks at correct distance to the rear of the first sergeant and executive officer when the company forms in column".
The intent of the "additional officers" is for those that are not organic to the organization who have been assigned/attached to it and figuring out where they go if they aren't part of one of the elements that is in the formation. However, I have seen some of the 'non-traditional' units have officers stand in one or two ranks to the rear of the larger formation. They are still an element in the larger formation though.
---------------------------------------
* TC 3-21.5 (Drill and Ceremonies) - https://armypubs.army.mil/epubs/DR_pubs/DR_a/ARN32297-TC_3-21.5-000-WEB-1.pdf
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CPT Lawrence Cable
COL Randall C. - I've never fired an M4, which means I'm older than dirt.
Did it get replaced or just change the format for FM to TC?
Did it get replaced or just change the format for FM to TC?
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CPL(P) (Join to see)
Unfortunately Sir, the Army places the stressing of D&C on individual units to teach on a level anything higher than what you learn in BCT, which was hardly sufficient when I did mine six years ago in Fort Benning. Also unfortunately, those units don’t have the time or resources to conduct D&C training ever. So it essentially just becomes NCOs that got some practice in BLC or some other school to make spot corrections on basic errors like hand or finger placement, or distancing. When I went through BLC a little more than a year ago, we practiced D&C for about a week, if not less, and the curriculum only specified the same basic marching commands and movements someone should realistically learn in BCT. Most leadership schools place a higher priority on the management, EO, SHARP, and counseling parts of being an NCO, which isn’t inherently bad in its own respect, but if I was asked to lead a formation, I’d respectfully decline to avoid embarrassing myself and my unit.
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MAJ Byron Oyler
Correct me if wrong, but with the exception of those in command billets, isn't almost everyone for administrative purposes assigned to a company? AMEDD, legal, and chaplain corps will all have more officers not in command billets that need accountability at the company level. When assigned to a field hospital I often had an NCO as my squad leader and it is just something I got used to, they had their job, I had mine, and they were very different. I think as a whole we could do better at teaching roles of officers and NCOs to each other and much better the branches in the army. One big one I had was how big army looks at combat arms and all the step-children. Combat arms had all the time in the world when in garrison to train for army tasks and often forgot those of us with the same job in garrison as in a combat role "Yes I would love to do a 12mile road march before taking care of ICU patients for 12hours, can we do it multiple times this week?"
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CPT (Join to see) Your name is Steve Rogers? Bet you don't catch any flak for that at all, especially as a Captain.
To your question, others have answered already, but I think non TDA units get formations wrong all the time. Even an HHD/HHC/etc have "platoons" or sections they should be forming up in, but they typically just get lazy and do a mass formation. To me, this eats away at those section leaders from building the team and enforces the idea that there is only one person in charge of the day to day.
No matter the organization, each small team is headed up by an NCO and an Officer and should form up as such. The NCOs gather the teams, the Officer stands in the back until the next higher up echelon 's CDR take over the formation from their NCO. If there are multiple Officers in the team, they join in rank with the OIC in the back.
I always hated BN formations where all the staff decide they want to be "apart" when their section has their own platoon formation.
It is not uncommon for the NCOIC to hold an accountability formation, pretty redundant to me when you have multiple NCOs or Officers who could just report their PERSTAT, but that is me just trying to Army. But every formation would be done correctly.
I despise mass formations.
To your question, others have answered already, but I think non TDA units get formations wrong all the time. Even an HHD/HHC/etc have "platoons" or sections they should be forming up in, but they typically just get lazy and do a mass formation. To me, this eats away at those section leaders from building the team and enforces the idea that there is only one person in charge of the day to day.
No matter the organization, each small team is headed up by an NCO and an Officer and should form up as such. The NCOs gather the teams, the Officer stands in the back until the next higher up echelon 's CDR take over the formation from their NCO. If there are multiple Officers in the team, they join in rank with the OIC in the back.
I always hated BN formations where all the staff decide they want to be "apart" when their section has their own platoon formation.
It is not uncommon for the NCOIC to hold an accountability formation, pretty redundant to me when you have multiple NCOs or Officers who could just report their PERSTAT, but that is me just trying to Army. But every formation would be done correctly.
I despise mass formations.
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CPT (Join to see) - if you look in the Global E-Mail address book there are service members with the last name "Merica", "America", and "American".
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CPT (Join to see) - that's wild...and should be surprising to me...but I'm not surprised as often these days as I used to be.
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