Posted on Apr 2, 2014
What is your thought on Modern Army Combatives?
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I am a Level IV combatives instructor. I believe that being in the number 1 fighting force in the world ALL Soldiers should learn at least Level I. There are many Soldiers of all ranks against it. I can not understand why they are. We are in the US ARMY not the girls scouts, not food services, not office work persay. Is it injury? More Soldiers are hurt in Basketball than anything else in the military with football right behind it. Yet we support the playing of sports. Your thoughts?
Physical Training
Training
Combatives
Posted >1 y ago
Responses: 62
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If I'm lucky, I get to do combatives training once a year.
During that 1 hour annual period, I'm expected to unlearn some 4 years worth of Aikido training.
While I would love to train on a regular basis, it is not practical in my current assignment. Without regular practice, I think it is a waste of time, and resources, and a unjustifiable safety risk.
During that 1 hour annual period, I'm expected to unlearn some 4 years worth of Aikido training.
While I would love to train on a regular basis, it is not practical in my current assignment. Without regular practice, I think it is a waste of time, and resources, and a unjustifiable safety risk.
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MAJ (Join to see)
My experience is similar to yours. I am level II in combatives but have outside training in martial arts that has been trained into muscle memory. If given the opportunity I would rather take out a knee. I still believe that Combatives I is beneficial for Soldiers, but as you note, it requires practice. If practice time is not going to be afforded then the initial training investment is a waste.
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It is common sense to teach soldiers anything that may help them survive. all that needs to be done is the same thing when we went from vietnam era hand to hand combatives to the current training. while i was in drill instructor course, we were trained and certified in the new combatives, then once we got to our basic training units the new training replaced the old. its that simple to emplement. it can also be taught during PT to familiarize permanent party soldiers.
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I come from a background in Kali/Arnis/Escrima and Silat. In those styles, the weapon application is almost always taught first. Why? Because the thought is, if you are going into combat, you don't go emptyhanded. You are ALWAYS going to have a weapon, trying to get your hands on a weapon or improvising a weapon. As such, I think combatives should start off with weapons then work towards empty hand. Weapons training doesn't need to be fancy (even with Kali, there is a tendency to do the fancy stuff when presenting material). Rifle and Bayonet. Impact and edged weapons. The initial mechanics can be trained fairly easily (angles of attack are natural and once the concept is learned, quite easy to apply), and refined over long term as needed. Once soldiers are familiar with basic strikes with weapons, move to strikes with empty hands. Depending on the training structure, strike movments with empty hands are going to be similar if not the same as strikes movement with weapons. THen move to takedowns and grappling. The reality is, being on the ground wrestling with an opponent is the last place you want to be, especially in a fight where weapons are going to be involved. Again, must my $.02.
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LTC Paul Labrador
SFC John Gates angels of attack are incorporated into combatives (kinda) but at a much later stage in training. I would argue at that point it's too late.
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CPT Lawrence Cable
I study various martial arts for years, mainly Shaolin Karate, but also Judo, Boxing, and a number of other Korean and Japanese styles as well. I even used to spar on occasion with some Professional Full Contact Karate guys (there are not enough pads in the world to keep that from not hurting). I taught the old style hand to hand classes in the Army. While I think it can be a decent motivational tool and can certainly decrease ones fear of confrontation, it really takes continual training, aggressiveness and very good physical conditioning to be effective at it. I'm not sure that I don't feel that teaching anything beyond the basics would be time better spent on weapons training. The one thing that I've learned over the years is that I've never walked away from a real fight uninjured, so the best strategy is to keep that distance, which means a firearm. So teach the basics and spend the rest of the time teaching people how to shoot. That seems to be a more realistic scenario, how many people do you know coming back from a combat zone that have said they went hand to hand with a bad guy? I don't know any.
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I don't know much about modern Army combatives, but it seems to me that it would be a great idea. As soldiers we need to be well versed in hand to hand combat. Not all battles end with the last bullet fired, many come down to close quarters battles. Come on people why do you think they issue you a bayonet to put on the rifles? It sure isn't decoration, they even teach you how properly use it. Being able to keep control of the emotions and harness the adrenalin pumping through the body is absolutely necessary. Hand to hand combat may be the only way to stay on top and keep control of the battlefield. Modern Army Combatives seems to be the way to go.
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LTC Paul Labrador
What I find kind of ironic is that the Army gets rid of bayonet training (which actually still has use) but institutes combatitves where the first thing we teach soldiers is to go to the ground and grapple without a weapon.....
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I know nothing of your Army Combatives but I know a little bit of martial arts from both civilian and military. I am a Black Belt in Tae Kwon Do and a Black Belt in Marine Corps Martial Arts Program (MCMAP). Before I get into all this and FYSA, the belts Marines wear on their trousers are martial arts belt, you will see them wearing either tan, grey, green, brown, black, and belts with tan or red tabs, all represent specific completion of MCMAP and/or instructor qualifications.
The link I posted has a short and sweet explanation of what Marines do in this area and will better explain it than I can. I personally believe that everybody should know the basics in hand to hand combat, using weapons of opportunities, and using non-lethal techniques for a few reasons. Every Marine is a combatant unlike the Army, Navy, and Air Force and it is required of us to have completed the first level of MCMAP and earn the tan belt, it's a requirement. Grunts have used it in combat (read the Navy Cross citation of a Corporal using hand to hand combat in Afghanistan), MP's have used it on base, Marine Security Guards at U.S. Embassies as well, and it's a tool that is better to have and never use it then to not be trained in it and need it.
The President of the United States of America takes pleasure in presenting the Navy Cross to Corporal Clifford M. Wooldridge, United States Marine Corps, for extraordinary heroism while serving as Veh...
Driven by the philosophy of "one mind, any weapon," the Marine Corps Martial Arts Program (MCMAP) combines some of the most effective unarmed techniques from various martial arts with armed techniques...
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I believe Level I and II should be taken by all Soldiers. Learning how to control an opponents body is beneficial against an enemy combatant who may drop his weapon in close quarters because he understands our ROE. With that being said, the failure of the program is not the program itself; it is the leaders in the unit. I for one continue to send Soldier in my PLT to Combatives. In addition, our 1SG, senior medic and one of our SPC are all Level IV certified and we as a unit started implementing combatives once a week for PT.
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Personally I do not see the purpose to have ALL Soldiers be Level I certified. I do however believe, understand and support the program for some; Mostly Combat Arms Soldiers who benefit from being instilled with that aggressive fighting spirit and being taught effective hand to hand combat fighting techniques.
On the flip side, for those Soldiers who are support Soldiers or who normally find themselves in support roles, do not benefit when it is not practiced on a regular basis. The knowledge, skills and subsequent actions taught by Army Combatives does not become second nature when practiced on a consistent basis. It actually becomes more of a liability than an asset (ie should I put my hand here? Or was it there? Am I supposed to push or pull?). Should it be scrapped altogether? No way. Should 100% of Soldiers be required to be certified and re-certified annually? I don't think so. Keep the combatives program for the Combat Arms personnel and those who will find themselves interacting with the local population of the country they're deployed to.
Last but not least, (this is directed at EVERYONE) remember that while this is a "social media" site, it is still a PROFESSIONAL forum. Speak and write accordingly. Do not call people names or make personal attacks. We are all currently or have served this great country. We can have a difference of opinion and still have a productive discussion without degrading one another.
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It's important for all people to know how to defend themselves. Combative training is important and may be the difference between life and death whether in combat or at home.
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Level (I) would be a great standard to have for all the soldiers out there. The only problem is, as with any martial arts or sports, if you don't stick with it and train at least semi-regularly, your form and functionality will suffer. An NCO of mine once told me that "Level (I) will teach you just enough to get your ass kicked." I'd have to agree with that on a basic level. If we were able to implement monthly or quarterly combatives training, it'd have more of a fighting chance. Pun totally intended.
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I honestly think combatives is a joke. As someone who has done Krav Maga, Jiu Jitsu, and Muay Thai (NOT at an MMA gym) along with dabbling in some other forms like Kali and JKD I think if you try to take combatives into a fight with someone that knows what they're doing you'll have a bad day. With that said, I think the Army should mandate that everyone be certified in Level I if nothing else then to just open the door to some that may have no experience in hand-to-hand. I have more confidence in MCMAP than combatives.
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SPC (Join to see)
With a doubt SFC, I just think the Army is trying to institute a generally useless program. I think we should do Krav Maga or Sambo in the Army instead of MAC.
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1SG (Join to see)
I hold a black belt in Kick Boxing, a black belt in Karate, A blue belt in Jiu jitsu. I am level IV combatives, been to the SOC P - Special Operations Combatives Program. I recognize the need. Im not the average Combatives instructor
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MAJ (Join to see)
I think if people had a basic understanding of Jiu Jitsu, Army Combatives would be a little more useful. To start Soldiers on "scenario based training" isn't the best idea in the world. Then again, I really don't have an opinion on how to fix it either.
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