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I am a Level IV combatives instructor. I believe that being in the number 1 fighting force in the world ALL Soldiers should learn at least Level I. There are many Soldiers of all ranks against it. I can not understand why they are. We are in the US ARMY not the girls scouts, not food services, not office work persay. Is it injury? More Soldiers are hurt in Basketball than anything else in the military with football right behind it. Yet we support the playing of sports. Your thoughts?
Physical Training
Training
Combatives
Posted >1 y ago
Responses: 62
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injuries are preventable, through all 5 courses I've been through in the Marine Corps Martial Arts Program (MCMAP) I was not hurt and rarely would I see others hurt other than something minor that is healed in a day or two. All these broken bones and crazy injuries is most likely due to instructors not enforcing rules to protect it's students, and students not listening to the instructors. The biggest things I always saw were students who had to go 100% on each other because they did not know how to control themselves and end up hurting somebody or people not knowing their limits and push themselves too far resulting in injury. Put out 50% strength slow and steady, 100% effort. Drop your ego and tap or you will break something.
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MAJ (Join to see)
I agree SSG. When I first started, I had the same issue as you're talking about. Now a days, I won't even let someone sink a choke in before I'm tapping.
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Can somebody post a video or something so I can get a better idea of what your combatives is like? This is what the Corps does.
Driven by the philosophy of "one mind, any weapon," the Marine Corps Martial Arts Program (MCMAP) combines some of the most effective unarmed techniques from various martial arts with armed techniques...
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GySgt (Join to see)
Thanks Sir! There are distinct differences in focus and techniques used between our two services. Great to see what you do though.
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CW2 (Join to see)
Again, the video is only showing the basic foundation, which the rest of the levels build on. But these are the basic fundamentals that all Soldiers should be versed in.
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You never know when you may use a little bit of that hand to hand
The President of the United States of America takes pleasure in presenting the Navy Cross to Corporal Clifford M. Wooldridge, United States Marine Corps, for extraordinary heroism while serving as Veh...
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Where to start.... when the program was started it was heading in the right direction but the rise of the UFC was almost hand in hand inline with MACP. (Just my pers perception) This may have taken the program off track a little bit, but as with everything in the Army it has since been back on the path of self correction. Ask yourself this question about OEF, has the ROE loosened or tightened down on freedom to employ weapons?
Of the documented cases, some were just the immediate hand to hand action to create space to employ the primary weapon system! Some was weapons retention... These are cornerstones of combatives and is a big difference between "MMA" and MACP.
Benefits of the system are not measurable. The SME's are able to provide Tactical training that is both relevant and aligns with the commanders METL. Think of MP's, can they employ weapons while working the road on a military installation. Sure they can, but combatives is a way to give them more tools for there toolbag, to give them options other than shoot. Everyone likes to say use OC or the X26, but when your taken off your feet and you've never been on your butt you may panic and use the next level force... Think medics doing AVPU and the patient panicking, you must be able to gain positive control of the patient to prevent injury to yourself and possibly the patient. Again, the list can go on and on. Im not saying everyone is doing the right thing, but there is more to combatives than MMA, Competitions and Certification....
Of the documented cases, some were just the immediate hand to hand action to create space to employ the primary weapon system! Some was weapons retention... These are cornerstones of combatives and is a big difference between "MMA" and MACP.
Benefits of the system are not measurable. The SME's are able to provide Tactical training that is both relevant and aligns with the commanders METL. Think of MP's, can they employ weapons while working the road on a military installation. Sure they can, but combatives is a way to give them more tools for there toolbag, to give them options other than shoot. Everyone likes to say use OC or the X26, but when your taken off your feet and you've never been on your butt you may panic and use the next level force... Think medics doing AVPU and the patient panicking, you must be able to gain positive control of the patient to prevent injury to yourself and possibly the patient. Again, the list can go on and on. Im not saying everyone is doing the right thing, but there is more to combatives than MMA, Competitions and Certification....
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SSG Daniel Deiler
Excellent points. Finding the "sweet spot" as to how much/how often training must occur to remain proficient and confident in that skill set is the challenge especially for the support MOS Soldier who must accomplish their day to day mission and remain relevant and current within their MOS. Sergeants Time training maybe? Or would a one hour PT session once a week or bi-monthly allow for enough time to teach and practice? More importantly, will commanders support the program if more emphasis were placed on it?
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CW2 (Join to see)
Ive found the commanders support it if you have a solid plan that supports their METL. But that is just training and not worth "promotion points" and doesn't go on your "ERB/ORB" so some Soldiers don't like that aspect. Still the certifications build fundamentals to facilitate the unit training and is worth promotion points and does go on your ERB/ORB. So I feel you need the right mix of both.
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SSG Daniel Deiler
Aaaaand you hit the nail square on the head...I was trying to illicit a response like that from someone IRT having "a solid plan that supports their METL." Very few leaders will take the initiative to create and present a plan...until directed to create and present a plan. Instead most are content with doing as little as possible and checking the block so they can go home on time.
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CW2 (Join to see)
This is where the SME's come into play. They need to be out there engaging units to tell them "hey, I am so n so, here is what I can do for you". On the other side of that coin, leaders need to engage the SME's with what kind of training they think would help facilitate there mission.
You do bring a good point, we as an Army lack people with the motivation to get out there and do this. It takes some brainstorming to come up with ideas of "how do I make this training relevant to this unit?" What situations and circumstances have to be met for a 92A to do combatives? That takes a good leader to read the METL, engage a combatives SME and ask them "here are the tasks I have, what can you do for me?"
***(I personally think we as SME's should be approaching you, but in the absence of initiative, you as the leader must take charge)
It is after all the Army's program, and it will only be as good as you want or allow it to be. SFC Jackson is the POC at 25th last time I checked, you should contact him and ask him "what can you do for me!"
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https://www.rallypoint.com/answers/what-do-you-think-the-importance-of-a-robust-combatives-program-plays-in-the-army-s-combat-readiness-future?from_groups=false
What do you know about the Army Combatives program right now and what direction is the army going with it? Do you think the program took a wrong turn doing the last 13 years of combat? Do you think th...
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The problem, at least in the National Guard, is time and implementation. We have time to do combatives one day out of the year, unless on a deployment cycle. This is not enough time to learn anything, much less make it instinctual enough to use in a real fight. Generally speaking we learn just enough to get us hurt if we tried to do in a life or death situation.
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1SG (Join to see)
Understood. If you are arond an active duty base, instructors will teach a level I at no cost to the Army or unit.
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Personally Army Combatives is for the few. I'd much rather learn boxing techniques. Maybe a few elbow and knee techniques just to give a competitve advantage. Really if someone has great punich power and understands how to throw a solid punch to knock someone out, it works much better than rolling around on the dirt hoping you get the top side leverage point.
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SSG Robert Burns
Again, a patient who is confused and in a panic is not gonna be taken down. That is the absolute last resort. There are laws against this. You can be charged with battery. I could lose my nursing license, etc.
To retrain a patient either physically or chemically is a very big deal. For me to say in any official statement that I utlized my Army Combatives Skills to take down the patient is going end up being a bad day for me.
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SSG Robert Burns
(posted again because Im having trouble editing)
Again, a patient who is confused and in a panic is not gonna be taken down. That is the absolute last resort. There are laws against this. You can be charged with battery. I could lose my nursing license, etc.
To restrain a patient either physically or chemically is a very big deal. For me to say in any official statement that I utlized my Army Combatives Skills to take down the patient is going end up being a bad day for me.
Also we do PMDB training every Friday. It's a pretty big deal.
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CW2 (Join to see)
I don't know if those M6 license regulations correlate to a hospital in the theater of operations or not. Again the above statement was made for your "take down team" statement. I don't want to badger you with all the other scenarios, but when I was in a CSH is when I was able to do the most UNIT level training and MOS Specific training I have ever done. The Command (at first) was one of the most resistant commands I ever faced....EVER. Once they saw how I tailored the unit level training to them they were blown away and soon I was conducting training on a regular basis. (I only had 2 minor injuries the whole time, compare that to the 10+ injuries during the same period due to playing just basketball!)
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CW2 (Join to see)
Just saw your edit. That's awesome that you are conducting that training and there is an emphasis on it.
All I will say is maybe you can bring in a LVL IV SME so he can see you operate and offer any advice and or resources to help you facilitate YOUR training.
The bottom line is we are all one force, with one common goal being to be the very best at what we do.
All I will say is maybe you can bring in a LVL IV SME so he can see you operate and offer any advice and or resources to help you facilitate YOUR training.
The bottom line is we are all one force, with one common goal being to be the very best at what we do.
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Its a waste of time. And it teaches people to think they have the option to tap out. How about more time on teaching stealth, surprise attack or dirty fighting. You think I would go toe to toe with a combative practitioner or throw dirt in that fool's face and hit him or her with the nearest skull cracking object and try to get away. Besides, why do some men like rolling on a mat with another sweaty dude straddling them.
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SSG P
The purpose of the MACP program is to give a Soldier a basic fight plan. No plan and your dead or worse yet your battle is dead because you failed to act. It is to instill the warrior spirit and confidence in a Soldier. I don't care if you have a 300 PT score and are an expert at the range. If you dont have the willingness to close with and destroy the enemy, your no good to me and all those numbers mean nothing.
SSG/P
Have you gone through at least lev 1 or lev 2 training? I was a MACP instructor. I never failed to motivate or impress the importance of this training on any sceptical Soldier. There is literally a practical application for all areas of your life.
I do see how the MACP program can be misrepresented by some instructors. I am sorry if that was your experience. I ask you to look at the purpose of the program. Analyze the fundamental value it has with some critical thinking. There is no better way to learn about what kind of man you are than to challenge another man in a combatives setting. You learn very quickly that a real fight requires a real plan, some basic knowledge.
(R)MSG March
The purpose of the MACP program is to give a Soldier a basic fight plan. No plan and your dead or worse yet your battle is dead because you failed to act. It is to instill the warrior spirit and confidence in a Soldier. I don't care if you have a 300 PT score and are an expert at the range. If you dont have the willingness to close with and destroy the enemy, your no good to me and all those numbers mean nothing.
SSG/P
Have you gone through at least lev 1 or lev 2 training? I was a MACP instructor. I never failed to motivate or impress the importance of this training on any sceptical Soldier. There is literally a practical application for all areas of your life.
I do see how the MACP program can be misrepresented by some instructors. I am sorry if that was your experience. I ask you to look at the purpose of the program. Analyze the fundamental value it has with some critical thinking. There is no better way to learn about what kind of man you are than to challenge another man in a combatives setting. You learn very quickly that a real fight requires a real plan, some basic knowledge.
(R)MSG March
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Suspended Profile
Are you still a combatives instructor? I have a slot for the combatives master trainer course. I'm trying to figure out what I should do to prepare.
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