Posted on Mar 6, 2015
What's The Problem With The Air Force Culture?
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EDIT: In the interest of fairness and full disclosure, I am leaving the original text of this post below so that you may see how I originally approached this question. When I first posted this, I was still a relative newcomer to RallyPoint. I was and still am curious about Air Force culture, working on Fort Snelling, MN, home of the 934th Air Wing, United States Air Force Reserve as well as the 133rd Tactical Fighter Squadron, Minnesota Air National Guard. In the past, I have worked jointly with elements of Air Force Security Forces and have always enjoyed strong working relationships. Aside from the usual banter across services, there is strong curiosity across the Army about you men and women in blue. However, this trend started to grow gradually more toxic in approximately 2007, around about the time SECDEF Rumsfeld leveled the charge that the Air Force wasn't engaged in the fight. That was an unfair charge; yet it hurt you as an institution nevertheless. Slowly, the talk I would hear among Soldiers in regards to Airmen turned more to contempt and bitterness. This wasn't right. And we all know that the Army's house has been far from perfect over the past decade plus; from Abu Ghraib to the apparent trend of dishonesty within our own Officer corps, we have our own crosses to bear without finding fault within your Force. So, if my original post below came across to you as sanctimonious or judgmental, that wasn't my intent. When I posted, I followed the recommendations to lead off with an attention-grabbing storyline, which I did. It's worked well! However, as I've refined my RP skills, I now know I would have dialed it back a notch or two! Thanks so much for allowing me to be a guest in your house and learn from you. I am thankful to you all, I am grateful for the connections I've made, and I'm damn glad you're on my side!
Howdy! Did the headline grab your attention? Good! I intend no disrespect; I am an Army Officer who seeks greater understanding. Participation in several recent threads has revealed a trend that issues such as stolen valor and the vigorous enforcement of standards, regulations, and policies are not only less important among Air Force folks, but there also exists an attitude of "even if we try to enforce or prevent, violations still occur, so why keep trying?" Is this just the winter observations of several bored Army Officers, or is this really a cultural mindset you as Air Force leaders must currently do battle with?
Ground Rules:
This is intended as a serious, cross-service professional discussion. I do not desire to see this diminish into a meme war or name-calling game. This discussion is open to all ranks, though is intended primarily for Officers and Senior NCOs. Navy and Marine Corps personnel may feel free to jump in and expand the boundaries of this discussion to all Service Branches at anytime.
Thank you.
Paul E. Hoiland
MAJ, MP
USAR
Howdy! Did the headline grab your attention? Good! I intend no disrespect; I am an Army Officer who seeks greater understanding. Participation in several recent threads has revealed a trend that issues such as stolen valor and the vigorous enforcement of standards, regulations, and policies are not only less important among Air Force folks, but there also exists an attitude of "even if we try to enforce or prevent, violations still occur, so why keep trying?" Is this just the winter observations of several bored Army Officers, or is this really a cultural mindset you as Air Force leaders must currently do battle with?
Ground Rules:
This is intended as a serious, cross-service professional discussion. I do not desire to see this diminish into a meme war or name-calling game. This discussion is open to all ranks, though is intended primarily for Officers and Senior NCOs. Navy and Marine Corps personnel may feel free to jump in and expand the boundaries of this discussion to all Service Branches at anytime.
Thank you.
Paul E. Hoiland
MAJ, MP
USAR
Air Force
Culture
Airmen
Edited 9 y ago
Posted 9 y ago
Responses: 124
139
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BLUF: What's wrong with Air Force culture? The Air Force is young and still forming its identity.
The Air Force is in the midst of an adolescent-style identity crisis. We are not Soldiers, we are not Marines and we are not an airline. We are the Air Force. Our mission is to take control of the skies and then reign destruction on our enemies from that high ground. Period. Dot. Do we do that well? Yes, absolutely.
Are we good at doing our mission because we are like Marines? No. Like Soldiers? No. An airline? No. We are good at our mission because we are Airmen. Period. Dot.
As the youngest service, we seek (and perhaps envy) the rich heritages of our elder services. As such, our Air Force leadership sometimes tries to cut corners by legislating it with contrived "creeds" or capital 'A's for Airmen. The trouble is, legislating heritage is a fools errand. Heritage and the respect of our peers is earned and developed over time.
Our culture was not forged at the Halls of Montezuma, Normandy or the summit of Mt. Suribachi. Ours is developing from operations such as, the Berlin Airlift, Linebackers I and II and the shock and awe of Desert Storm. Our history is different than our sister services and therefore, so is our culture. Embrace it, and develop it for our own purposes, not to appease the critiques of our elder services. I believe (hope) that "corporate" Air Force culture is merely a phase on our journey to maturity as a service.
I say take criticism in stride and be proud that no one brings air power to the fight better than American Airmen. That is our identity. Embrace the culture that makes us who we are. Would I want to be a Marine? No. I'm an Airman and proud of it. Do I respect Marines? Without a doubt.
The Air Force has maturing to do in terms of being comfortable in its own skin. I'm not sure the average Marine has the same respect for Airmen as I do Marines. That's okay. As we fight alongside our sister services in tomorrow's battles we will eventually find ourselves on the same mature, cultural plane as our peer services. Respect will come. So will creeds, slogans and traditions that are developed in the field, not the Pentagon.
The Air Force is in the midst of an adolescent-style identity crisis. We are not Soldiers, we are not Marines and we are not an airline. We are the Air Force. Our mission is to take control of the skies and then reign destruction on our enemies from that high ground. Period. Dot. Do we do that well? Yes, absolutely.
Are we good at doing our mission because we are like Marines? No. Like Soldiers? No. An airline? No. We are good at our mission because we are Airmen. Period. Dot.
As the youngest service, we seek (and perhaps envy) the rich heritages of our elder services. As such, our Air Force leadership sometimes tries to cut corners by legislating it with contrived "creeds" or capital 'A's for Airmen. The trouble is, legislating heritage is a fools errand. Heritage and the respect of our peers is earned and developed over time.
Our culture was not forged at the Halls of Montezuma, Normandy or the summit of Mt. Suribachi. Ours is developing from operations such as, the Berlin Airlift, Linebackers I and II and the shock and awe of Desert Storm. Our history is different than our sister services and therefore, so is our culture. Embrace it, and develop it for our own purposes, not to appease the critiques of our elder services. I believe (hope) that "corporate" Air Force culture is merely a phase on our journey to maturity as a service.
I say take criticism in stride and be proud that no one brings air power to the fight better than American Airmen. That is our identity. Embrace the culture that makes us who we are. Would I want to be a Marine? No. I'm an Airman and proud of it. Do I respect Marines? Without a doubt.
The Air Force has maturing to do in terms of being comfortable in its own skin. I'm not sure the average Marine has the same respect for Airmen as I do Marines. That's okay. As we fight alongside our sister services in tomorrow's battles we will eventually find ourselves on the same mature, cultural plane as our peer services. Respect will come. So will creeds, slogans and traditions that are developed in the field, not the Pentagon.
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Sgt William Straub Jr.
I think many in other older branches tend to diminish what they fee is a combat experience from airmen. I beg to differ. Yes Army and Marine grunts carried the heavy load in ground combat operations in Viet Nam, but do any of you young troops remember something called the Tet offensive of 68'. Many Air Force security personal gave their lives in airbase defense. There is a story of an Security Policeman on a guard tower being over run by VC. He killed as I remember the story 50 or 60 and as they were climbing the tower he was still killing them as they came through the hatch. It's my understanding that he called an airstrike on his own position, knowing he wasn't going to survive. There are stories galore about combat SP's all around SEA. I was in Thailand and found motor emplacement areas set up to attack the POL, Base Ops' and SP areas. We are a young service, hell I'm just 2 years younger than my Air Force. But I have the same pride in our young traditions as other branches have in theirs. And by the way, the US Army Air Corp became the USAF in 1947. Remember a little mission in 1942 when 16 B25 bombers (land based aircraft by the way) took off from the USS Hornet and had the first bombing attack on the Japanese homeland. It may not have been a strategic victory, but it sure let the Japanese know that they were not untouchable. Just remember that when the shit is hitting the fan, just look up at the A-10, come screaming down with a payload that makes Achmed shit his robe and messes up his goat girlfriend. And those guys flying bombers, A-10's F-22's F-35's are for the most part in their mid 20's. Gutsy young men. Brothers as much as the Marine or soldier patrolling Fallujah.
FLY HIGH!
FLY HIGH!
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SSgt Boyd Welch
Having served in the Army and the Air Force, I can say other than friendly banter from my "other service" brethren, we've shown and received respect for each other for the job we did. There is a certain camaraderie amongst those who have packed a ruck and weapon. But I've had just as much respect for the guys loading and maintaining the aircraft who dropped ordnance on the enemy pinning us down. Sometimes Air Force folks wish they had more of a battle story to tell, but I look at it in this way...because of the job each branch of the service does, someone gets to go home who might not have otherwise. Proud to have served alongside, Army, Marines, Air Force and Navy (did not get the chance to work with the Coast Guard).
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During an evening discussion (scotch was involved) with an Army friend at my house, he asked essentially the same question, except without the implication there was a PROBLEM with AF culture. He asked, "why is the AF so different culturally from the Army, when we recruit from the same pool and have the same objective...defense of our nation?"
There is one difference that drives several more...the shape of the force. The Marines need the majority of their E-1s and E-2s to separate after their first tour, in order to keep their force young, fit, a little crazed, and structurally flat. They have a very squat triangle, with LOTS of E-1s and 2 and very few E-8s and 9s, and that's best for a largely infantry, low tech, low personnel investment organization. The Army is next in organizational flatness. Navy is closer to the AF in that it spends more time and money training their enlisted troops to maintain airplanes and radar and manage datalinks and other high tech gear. The Air Force spends the most per Enlisted on technical training. It's expensive, and it takes YEARS to grow a 7-level aircraft maintainer. So the AF invests in better dorms, chow, base facilities, etc in order to RETAIN them. We need to keep a larger percentage of our enlisted through 2, 3, 4 tours, because our mission is a technical one, and we invest more time and money in our people. The AF structural triangle is taller and thinner than the other services because we need to retain technical experts. That's why the Army sometimes views the Air Force as technocrats, and some Air Force people view the Army as knuckle draggers. I reject the notion the Air Force ignores violations and suggest MAJ (Join to see) may be basing his view on a few bad apples. But the more relaxed attitude, better conditions and higher retention rates are all real.
There is one difference that drives several more...the shape of the force. The Marines need the majority of their E-1s and E-2s to separate after their first tour, in order to keep their force young, fit, a little crazed, and structurally flat. They have a very squat triangle, with LOTS of E-1s and 2 and very few E-8s and 9s, and that's best for a largely infantry, low tech, low personnel investment organization. The Army is next in organizational flatness. Navy is closer to the AF in that it spends more time and money training their enlisted troops to maintain airplanes and radar and manage datalinks and other high tech gear. The Air Force spends the most per Enlisted on technical training. It's expensive, and it takes YEARS to grow a 7-level aircraft maintainer. So the AF invests in better dorms, chow, base facilities, etc in order to RETAIN them. We need to keep a larger percentage of our enlisted through 2, 3, 4 tours, because our mission is a technical one, and we invest more time and money in our people. The AF structural triangle is taller and thinner than the other services because we need to retain technical experts. That's why the Army sometimes views the Air Force as technocrats, and some Air Force people view the Army as knuckle draggers. I reject the notion the Air Force ignores violations and suggest MAJ (Join to see) may be basing his view on a few bad apples. But the more relaxed attitude, better conditions and higher retention rates are all real.
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Col Joseph Lenertz
Very interesting story. My older brother enlisted in the Navy and was a catapult cable setter on the USS Forrestal when it burned. His post-Vietnam experience was, like so many, pretty horrible. It's always eye-opening to hear of the impact a negative experience can have, especially early in one's life. My own defiance and stubbornness drove me to attend the USAF Academy in 1980 and (unsuccessfully) fight the system for years before I wised up. I'm happy to report I was able to lead a rewarding and positive life in the AF, through many deployments and conflicts (there are no wars anymore), and retire with my family intact and together. I'm also pleased to hear your wise choices have led you to such a fine calling.
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Sgt William Straub Jr.
Right on the button Colonel, we train to maintain. Air Force wants their personnel to stay. Treat them like men and give them respect and it's easier to keep them in the fold.
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Coming from the Corps to the Air Force I have seen vast differences in culture, attitude and discipline compared to the Corps. And one of the hardest things for me was dealing with the difference. But I also have seen very hard work from these same AF individuals to complete the mission at hand and get the job done. Could they be a little more fit, pay attention to proper uniform wear and be more disciplined? Yes, they could but they know their job and how to do it well. The Air Force does have their bad asses, Special Operations Weather Team (SOWT), Tactical Air Control Party (TACP), Air Force Combat Control Teams, (Combat Controller, CCT), Pararescuemen ( better known as PJs).
I am a Marine will always be a Marine but am just as proud of my time in the Air Force.
I am a Marine will always be a Marine but am just as proud of my time in the Air Force.
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SrA (Join to see)
Thing is, we tend to work hard- but play harder. I am unsure of how other branches work, for I have been strictly AF my entire time in the military, and yes I understand that we (AF) do some / a lot of things that other branches do not agree with when it comes to culture, standards, etc.- but in the end, the mission being the only thing that counts, kick back and relax- enjoy yourself, and your decision, to switch to the blue!
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MSgt Michael Vassallo
Maybe I've been retired too long. Active Duty Air Force from 1974 to 1997. The history may not be as long as the other services. That has to do with when the technology that created this service became available. There is no doubt the US Air Force is in control of the skys above the battlefield. I spent 8 of my 22 years in Joint Service and NATO assignments. Learned a lot about the Army Especially my time at Bragg and Ft Huachuca, the Marine Corps at Pendelton and Okinawa, Navy with a short 6 month cruise on the Mt Whitney, and some time at NSA Naples. I am pround of all my brothers and sisters and wether you are a grunt, dog face, jarhead, leatherneck, squid, bubblehead, Zoomie or whatever else you want to call eachother when push came to shove it all comes down to the Red, White and Blue. I for one will stand tall with weapon in hand with any other like minded serviceman, woman or veteran. We all signed that blank check to include our lives and wether called to do it or not we served well and with honor. Considering the Air Force is basically the smallest in numbers of the services, we have Senior NCO's doing jobs Warrent Officers do in other services and in many cases E-5 & E-6's doing what E-7's do in the Army is enough to realize all the services have a great job to do. I will continue to support them and why I gave up a good paying civilian job to work at the VA to continue helping my brothers and sisters any way I can. We are not in this for a chest full of ribbons & medals, it is not a competition for who has the most MOH recipiants it is about believing in and serving this great country and the people who live here. That is why we call it a SERVICE. We are all one family with blood shared all over the world. When one serviceman gets hurt we all feel it, if you don't turn in your uniform for some civilian attire and leave the service to those who care, those who respect those that went before us and those that will follow. I hope someday a young serviceman will come visit me and say thanks for your service, just like we do to our WWII and other veterans now. OK done with the soap box. now Straightenup FLY right, Stay Strong and above all Stand Tall with no shame. GOD Bless.
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