Posted on Nov 21, 2015
What's wrong with my riflescope? See below for some helpful tips you may not have known about.
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If you have ever mounted a riflescope you may be aware of what a daunting process it can be. There are so many factors that can attribute to your scope not functioning properly. Poor alignment is often confused with a problem with the scope. There are many occasions where one will mount the scope go straight to the bore sighter only to find out that they are out of windage or elevation. typically this isn't a scope issue. A scope manufacturer can't add more range of adjustment inside your scope. Here's a more in depth explanation as to what is happening on the inside of your scope. Your erector system (where your cross hair is and where the magnification happens) sits in the center of your main tube. Higher end scopes will use bigger lenses in their erector system to get better clarity. This will come at the expense of range of adjustment. In order for your scope to function at its best it's is necessary to keep your erector system as close to center as possible. If you go to vote sight and you find yourself moving quite a few clicks to get aligned this should trigger a thought in your mind that something is off. If it's in the wind age you should look at wind age adjustable bases or rings with inserts to achieve a better alignment. If it's happening in your elevation that you should consider a 20 MOA bases or again rings with inserts to achieve a better alignment. The 20 MOA base will put you lower in your adjustment range giving you more upward travel thus keeping the erector system closer to the center.
What happens if I don't correct a misalignment? What happens here is that your erector system will be up against the interior wall of the scope and there will be no cushion for the recoil. You are putting to much pressure on the springs that are designed to absorb recoil and the scope will shoot erraticlly. Well that's all well and good but that doesn't apply to me because it only took a few clicks to get aligned on my bore sighter so I'm not out of adjustment and I still get erratic shot groups do it's definitely the scope? Also not true! How many people use an actual inch pound torque wrench when mounting? Not many. You maybe unaware but each ring and base manufacturer has their own recommended torque spec that should be followed with a proper inch pound torque wrench. There is no standard in the industry. If you have tightened you rings by hand it is very possible your have over torqued the rings and the main tube is being flexed. So now you are impeding upon that space that the erector system needs to function properly and you are making adjustments inside the scope so the two issues meet in the middle. Now you erector system is once again touching the inside wall.
How do I find the torque specs for my rings? Call the manufacturer of the rings and ask. Did I damage my scope if the rings were to tight? Not necessarily, most scopes have aluminum tubes so they flecks easily. If the rings were slightly over tightens the scope will reform. If you have severely over tightened you will see an indentation or crack on the tube at which time yes you have damaged the scope. Finally keep this in mind these are just two common scenarios that are widely over looked there are many more but if you've spent a lot of money on your rifle and even more on your scope ask yourself this question if you encounter erratic shot groups? If it's not the rifle and it's not the scope what else can it be?there is always a possibility it is the scope but you should check these things first before assuming it is it will save you time, ammo, and money. Feel free to ask me any additional questions below and I'll be happy to try to assist.
What happens if I don't correct a misalignment? What happens here is that your erector system will be up against the interior wall of the scope and there will be no cushion for the recoil. You are putting to much pressure on the springs that are designed to absorb recoil and the scope will shoot erraticlly. Well that's all well and good but that doesn't apply to me because it only took a few clicks to get aligned on my bore sighter so I'm not out of adjustment and I still get erratic shot groups do it's definitely the scope? Also not true! How many people use an actual inch pound torque wrench when mounting? Not many. You maybe unaware but each ring and base manufacturer has their own recommended torque spec that should be followed with a proper inch pound torque wrench. There is no standard in the industry. If you have tightened you rings by hand it is very possible your have over torqued the rings and the main tube is being flexed. So now you are impeding upon that space that the erector system needs to function properly and you are making adjustments inside the scope so the two issues meet in the middle. Now you erector system is once again touching the inside wall.
How do I find the torque specs for my rings? Call the manufacturer of the rings and ask. Did I damage my scope if the rings were to tight? Not necessarily, most scopes have aluminum tubes so they flecks easily. If the rings were slightly over tightens the scope will reform. If you have severely over tightened you will see an indentation or crack on the tube at which time yes you have damaged the scope. Finally keep this in mind these are just two common scenarios that are widely over looked there are many more but if you've spent a lot of money on your rifle and even more on your scope ask yourself this question if you encounter erratic shot groups? If it's not the rifle and it's not the scope what else can it be?there is always a possibility it is the scope but you should check these things first before assuming it is it will save you time, ammo, and money. Feel free to ask me any additional questions below and I'll be happy to try to assist.
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Posted 9 y ago
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I bought a scope ring lapping set, not too expensive. these will ensure that your rings also hold your scope straight on the rifle. They usually come with levels to check scope level as well.
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SSG Walter Gurbisz
SGT Del Lavature - I didn't think about the Swarovski Scopes, I was a guest at a ground hog shoot and everyone seemed to be shooting Nightforce or Leupolds.
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I would like to add a little scope knowledge here. If you have shot anything avidly you may know the name US Optics. If you have been around long enough, you will know that company was started by John Williams II, and is carried on by JBWIII these days. This company held USMC/USN scope contracts for a few years. These two men taught me scopes, rings, and mounts.
Break them in with movement:
Take the elevation and windage knobs to their edge limits at least ten times. Bring them to center, then move them back and forth ten times. What you have just done is set your knobs mechanical parts and insured they are aligned and not binding and have free movement. You have also warmed the build lubricant on them and fully lubricated all mechanical movement parts.
True Mechanical Zero of a Scope:
This is not when both erector and elevation knobs are counted to dead center. Insure your base is tight, and your lower ring halves are on tight. Secure the rifle, or pistol into your work stand so it will not move. Place your scope into the lower halves and lightly turn to 90* left, then 180* to the right as you look through it. See how the exact center of the reticle makes an arc? You are not true zero. As you rotate the scope, rotate both knobs until the center of the reticle rotates dead center and the reticle 'spins' exactly centered. Now that it is centered, rotate it back to it's properly aligned position, with the elevation stadia line perpendicular to the rifle and mount, and the windage stadia level. Tighten your ring tops to 15"#(bottoms are tightened to 15"# if using small screws, 65"# if using tactical bolts).
Now you are ready to go shoot, and 'box' your scope after you properly zero it. At 100M, you have shot a three round group, and have adjusted, and shot a three round ragged hole dead on. You are zeroed. Aim down and left of your bullseye, to a solid known mark on the target. Shoot. Raise elevation knob 10 clicks UP, aim at original hole, and shoot. The hole should be straight up about 2.5" above the first hole. Now click off 10 clicks RIGHT. Aiming at the first hole, fire. This hole should be to the right of the second hole about 2.5". Now click ten clicks DOWN, aim at the first hole and fire. You should be on the same line, and to the right of your original hole. Now click 10 clicks LEFT, and fire using the original hole as your aiming point. Your shot should make a ragged hole of the first hole you made if your elevation and windage knobs are good.
Tricks of the trade:
Bases: If you are shooting to 1,000M, your scope will travel some 36MOA in clicks. To make your scope work less and use 'less' movement, you can use a 15MOA or 20MOA slanted base. If you are shooting that far on a regular basis, and have a good scope, a 15MOA base is all you need. If you are shooting 338's, you should go with a 20MOA base for ranges beyond 1K. If you are shooting 0M - 600M you will not require a slanted base.
When you mount your base, chase the threads with a little marvel oil, then clean them with denatured alcohol. Clean the receiver and the bottom of the base with denatured alcohol. Apply a thin coat of Devcon, or JB Weld on the bottom of the base. Using a little blue loctite on the screws, set the base at 45"# and allow the Devcon to cure for 48 hours. You have bedded your base. What this does is slow the transmitted recoil energy effecting the screws for durability when using heavier scopes.
For those of you shooting MOA reticles (many ballistic reticles are marked in known MOA amounts) it is 1MIL = 3.4MOA These known measurements numbers allow you to range with any reticle once you can convert it's reticle.
Break them in with movement:
Take the elevation and windage knobs to their edge limits at least ten times. Bring them to center, then move them back and forth ten times. What you have just done is set your knobs mechanical parts and insured they are aligned and not binding and have free movement. You have also warmed the build lubricant on them and fully lubricated all mechanical movement parts.
True Mechanical Zero of a Scope:
This is not when both erector and elevation knobs are counted to dead center. Insure your base is tight, and your lower ring halves are on tight. Secure the rifle, or pistol into your work stand so it will not move. Place your scope into the lower halves and lightly turn to 90* left, then 180* to the right as you look through it. See how the exact center of the reticle makes an arc? You are not true zero. As you rotate the scope, rotate both knobs until the center of the reticle rotates dead center and the reticle 'spins' exactly centered. Now that it is centered, rotate it back to it's properly aligned position, with the elevation stadia line perpendicular to the rifle and mount, and the windage stadia level. Tighten your ring tops to 15"#(bottoms are tightened to 15"# if using small screws, 65"# if using tactical bolts).
Now you are ready to go shoot, and 'box' your scope after you properly zero it. At 100M, you have shot a three round group, and have adjusted, and shot a three round ragged hole dead on. You are zeroed. Aim down and left of your bullseye, to a solid known mark on the target. Shoot. Raise elevation knob 10 clicks UP, aim at original hole, and shoot. The hole should be straight up about 2.5" above the first hole. Now click off 10 clicks RIGHT. Aiming at the first hole, fire. This hole should be to the right of the second hole about 2.5". Now click ten clicks DOWN, aim at the first hole and fire. You should be on the same line, and to the right of your original hole. Now click 10 clicks LEFT, and fire using the original hole as your aiming point. Your shot should make a ragged hole of the first hole you made if your elevation and windage knobs are good.
Tricks of the trade:
Bases: If you are shooting to 1,000M, your scope will travel some 36MOA in clicks. To make your scope work less and use 'less' movement, you can use a 15MOA or 20MOA slanted base. If you are shooting that far on a regular basis, and have a good scope, a 15MOA base is all you need. If you are shooting 338's, you should go with a 20MOA base for ranges beyond 1K. If you are shooting 0M - 600M you will not require a slanted base.
When you mount your base, chase the threads with a little marvel oil, then clean them with denatured alcohol. Clean the receiver and the bottom of the base with denatured alcohol. Apply a thin coat of Devcon, or JB Weld on the bottom of the base. Using a little blue loctite on the screws, set the base at 45"# and allow the Devcon to cure for 48 hours. You have bedded your base. What this does is slow the transmitted recoil energy effecting the screws for durability when using heavier scopes.
For those of you shooting MOA reticles (many ballistic reticles are marked in known MOA amounts) it is 1MIL = 3.4MOA These known measurements numbers allow you to range with any reticle once you can convert it's reticle.
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SGT Del Lavature
SSG James Noar,
I appreciate your contribution to this thread and I think you have given some valuable insight into the complexities that can arise in the scope mounting procedure. My guess is you’re a precision shooter or bench rest shooter. I am familiar with US Optics and they are a very reputable brand. I see you have been taught very well. There are few things I’d like to address in regards to your procedure.
The True Mechanical Zero and Factory Zero setting procedure to which you use is very informative. It’s similar to the old Mirror Trick: Put your scope objective face down on a mirror look into your scope and you should see two images of the reticle. Align the two images of the reticle so that you only see one image in the center. However I don’t see a huge benefit in doing this from the start. If the scope has shipped directly from the manufacturer and it is factory zeroed it’s going to be very close to dead center. You might gain a few clicks when you get it to True Mechanical Zero but I doubt it’s a drastic change. If a few clicks are the difference during the mounting process you have much bigger issues regarding your alignment. Perhaps I’m overlooking something? Even on the long range end of the “every click counts” argument you have the erector tube pushed up against the interior wall which isn’t ideal. I think you could get just a good alignment on your reticle by using a level personally.
In regards to the rings specs 15 in/lbs is not a standard in the industry. Tally, Leupold, Burris, Weaver, DNZ, and Warne all have different torque specs on their various different model rings. You will see there is a vast different between Steel Rings and Lightweight Aluminum rings. I personally would contact the ring and base manufacturer and ask them specifically what they recommend.
I love the box method I think it works great. But really the only benefit to doing it is to make sure your scopes adjustments are true. It can be quite costly if you are using custom or very expensive ammo. With high end optics this really isn’t an issue. If you are going to use this method be sure that your scope adjustments are in fact .25 clicks @ 100yds. Some manufacturers have different values. Example .36in @100 yds or .18in @100 yds.
Lastly, and I mean this with no disrespect at all. I would urge any shooter to take EXTREME CAUTION if they intend on JB Welding (bedding) their Bases to the rifle. Though your reasoning makes sense you are assuming that you will encounter no issues in the mounting process after the scope is mounted and that everything is aligned properly. There are a lot of what if’s here. If the holes in the receiver are bit off, if your bases are milled just a little bit differently. Not all scopes are designed to shoot 1000yds and in fact many are designed for typically hunting situations between 100-700yds. Some scopes only have 43.2 inches of total adjustment and require a 20 MOA base and you don’t realize it until you try to mount the scope. Not all scopes have 118 MOA or 82 MOA. Not only might you void the warranty on the ring and base system but you might void the warranty on your rifle as well. I agree with the loctite on the rings completely as long as its blue.
Again Sir in no way am I saying your method is wrong if it works for you great. My goal is to give everyone the most detailed information to educate them on things to look for in the future. Thank you again for your feedback.
I appreciate your contribution to this thread and I think you have given some valuable insight into the complexities that can arise in the scope mounting procedure. My guess is you’re a precision shooter or bench rest shooter. I am familiar with US Optics and they are a very reputable brand. I see you have been taught very well. There are few things I’d like to address in regards to your procedure.
The True Mechanical Zero and Factory Zero setting procedure to which you use is very informative. It’s similar to the old Mirror Trick: Put your scope objective face down on a mirror look into your scope and you should see two images of the reticle. Align the two images of the reticle so that you only see one image in the center. However I don’t see a huge benefit in doing this from the start. If the scope has shipped directly from the manufacturer and it is factory zeroed it’s going to be very close to dead center. You might gain a few clicks when you get it to True Mechanical Zero but I doubt it’s a drastic change. If a few clicks are the difference during the mounting process you have much bigger issues regarding your alignment. Perhaps I’m overlooking something? Even on the long range end of the “every click counts” argument you have the erector tube pushed up against the interior wall which isn’t ideal. I think you could get just a good alignment on your reticle by using a level personally.
In regards to the rings specs 15 in/lbs is not a standard in the industry. Tally, Leupold, Burris, Weaver, DNZ, and Warne all have different torque specs on their various different model rings. You will see there is a vast different between Steel Rings and Lightweight Aluminum rings. I personally would contact the ring and base manufacturer and ask them specifically what they recommend.
I love the box method I think it works great. But really the only benefit to doing it is to make sure your scopes adjustments are true. It can be quite costly if you are using custom or very expensive ammo. With high end optics this really isn’t an issue. If you are going to use this method be sure that your scope adjustments are in fact .25 clicks @ 100yds. Some manufacturers have different values. Example .36in @100 yds or .18in @100 yds.
Lastly, and I mean this with no disrespect at all. I would urge any shooter to take EXTREME CAUTION if they intend on JB Welding (bedding) their Bases to the rifle. Though your reasoning makes sense you are assuming that you will encounter no issues in the mounting process after the scope is mounted and that everything is aligned properly. There are a lot of what if’s here. If the holes in the receiver are bit off, if your bases are milled just a little bit differently. Not all scopes are designed to shoot 1000yds and in fact many are designed for typically hunting situations between 100-700yds. Some scopes only have 43.2 inches of total adjustment and require a 20 MOA base and you don’t realize it until you try to mount the scope. Not all scopes have 118 MOA or 82 MOA. Not only might you void the warranty on the ring and base system but you might void the warranty on your rifle as well. I agree with the loctite on the rings completely as long as its blue.
Again Sir in no way am I saying your method is wrong if it works for you great. My goal is to give everyone the most detailed information to educate them on things to look for in the future. Thank you again for your feedback.
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SSG James N.
If you are using cheap scopes and cheap mounting solutions that do not promise precision, yes, you will have variation. As you know, everything is ALWAYS test fitted twice, then checked three times for precision before making it semi permanent. I am a precision marksman competitor and have been since 1989. As a DMR I also shot a lot of known, and unknown distance in practice. If you reload, you do not have a problem with exotic or expensive ammunition. If you are paying $53 a box for Hornady Superformance et al, you pretty much need to reload if you want to shoot a lot.
Using Devcon Metal bedding or JB Weld does not void any warranties.
You DO NOT loctite rings. You DO loctite bases to the receiver.
The centering process I outlined is used by the guys at US Optics and McMillan when building rifles. Trying to align your scope on a mirror will get you close, very close, but not dead center.
I have built rifles for friends, and I have built my own rifles or modified them by stripping everything off the oe barreled action. I have also taken every rifle I was ever issued since 1989 and put better parts in them, saving the GI stuff in a box for return if leaving to a new unit.
As to my shooting records, Hawkeye from 1987 to 2006, every target, every range. In 2002, and 2003, I was 10th, then 8th in class in an aggregate of 22 shooters. In the entire aggregate I was 32nd, and 33rd out of an aggregate of 173 and 186 shooters. From 1989 to 1993 I earned two Bronze and four Silver medals in Service Rifle, and Highpower competition. Shooting on , and off the bench, KD, and UKD are what I practice every time I go out to shoot.
I have seen many armchair rifle builders and hunters with their oddball caliber hunting rifles they call sniper rifles and brag about their 1200 yard deer shots with their 7mm mags. I have stood and listened with cocked eyebrow to veterans who give sage advice on how to properly shoot and when they bring out their rifles they can only hit 2-3MOA at 100M. The guys I met at US Optics and from McMillan or GAP, well, what they talk about, I was the guy standing there taking every bit of it in, and asking a million questions. I just slap stuff together and for some reason have super good luck in that it all hits <1/2MOA.
If you want cheap, aluminum SWFA rings are the proverbial cat's ass. There are many manufacturers of bases, but if you are using anything but 1913 spec bases and rings, you are losing precision in your optics system.
For me, this is really a conversation I prefer to have over a few beers after a day at the range
Using Devcon Metal bedding or JB Weld does not void any warranties.
You DO NOT loctite rings. You DO loctite bases to the receiver.
The centering process I outlined is used by the guys at US Optics and McMillan when building rifles. Trying to align your scope on a mirror will get you close, very close, but not dead center.
I have built rifles for friends, and I have built my own rifles or modified them by stripping everything off the oe barreled action. I have also taken every rifle I was ever issued since 1989 and put better parts in them, saving the GI stuff in a box for return if leaving to a new unit.
As to my shooting records, Hawkeye from 1987 to 2006, every target, every range. In 2002, and 2003, I was 10th, then 8th in class in an aggregate of 22 shooters. In the entire aggregate I was 32nd, and 33rd out of an aggregate of 173 and 186 shooters. From 1989 to 1993 I earned two Bronze and four Silver medals in Service Rifle, and Highpower competition. Shooting on , and off the bench, KD, and UKD are what I practice every time I go out to shoot.
I have seen many armchair rifle builders and hunters with their oddball caliber hunting rifles they call sniper rifles and brag about their 1200 yard deer shots with their 7mm mags. I have stood and listened with cocked eyebrow to veterans who give sage advice on how to properly shoot and when they bring out their rifles they can only hit 2-3MOA at 100M. The guys I met at US Optics and from McMillan or GAP, well, what they talk about, I was the guy standing there taking every bit of it in, and asking a million questions. I just slap stuff together and for some reason have super good luck in that it all hits <1/2MOA.
If you want cheap, aluminum SWFA rings are the proverbial cat's ass. There are many manufacturers of bases, but if you are using anything but 1913 spec bases and rings, you are losing precision in your optics system.
For me, this is really a conversation I prefer to have over a few beers after a day at the range
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SGT Del Lavature
To your point sir a majority of shooters are most likely using (cheap mounting solutions) however Talley and DNZ are very reputable. ANY Loctite voids their lifetime warranty. So again it's better to be safe then sorry and make the call to the manufacturer to make sure. Your shooting records and achievements are extremely impressive and something you should be very proud of. The next time you go to SHOT Show I'll be happy to catch a beer with you and share my knowledge on exactly how a Swarovski scope is assembled and repaired as well as the full quality control process that a scope has to pass in order to leave the facility. I'll also be happy to explain how a leaf spring erector system differs from our patented 4 coil spring system and our newest spring and lever system. We can never be too educated when it comes to this topic. Thanks again for your contribution.
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SSG James N.
I saw all the steps from raw materials to final fitment, to reticle manufacture, coatings, all of it on these 'bad asses'. See the huge one in the middle? It's something like a 90 x 180 Externally adjusted set up(Erectors are external). From US Optics old building, you could see minor details on college girls on Knott's Berry Farm's rides. Like seriously tell how cold it was up high versus down lower.
I am assuming you have a job with Swarovoski. I get the loctite on the RINGS, but mounting a base to the receiver only has mounting hardware going into the rifle itself, not the base. I have not ever seen using green loctite here or Devcon as a warranty issue, but then again, I have never used anything not 1913 spec. After shooting nothing but tactical glass or using tactical lightweight mounting solutions, I don't know if I could go to anything less. Definitely would not go non 1913 though
I am assuming you have a job with Swarovoski. I get the loctite on the RINGS, but mounting a base to the receiver only has mounting hardware going into the rifle itself, not the base. I have not ever seen using green loctite here or Devcon as a warranty issue, but then again, I have never used anything not 1913 spec. After shooting nothing but tactical glass or using tactical lightweight mounting solutions, I don't know if I could go to anything less. Definitely would not go non 1913 though
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SGT Del Lavature
SPC Elijah J. Henry, MBA - Maybe that's my issue where is the post proper, I don't see any of the above"posted in these groups"
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SPC Elijah J. Henry, MBA
SGT Del Lavature if you are on your phone, you may not be able to edit a post.
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