Posted on Jul 24, 2015
What would you do if you had a junior Sailor that will not adhere to simple regulations and "forgets" to do what he is told?
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Leadership
PO1
Sailors
Discipline
Posted >1 y ago
Responses: 50
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Oh yeah...here's one for the books:
About a year into my first DIVO tour, we were having trouble in the Division with folks coming in a few minutes late while in the Yard. We'd finished a long deployment and were in the middle of a tough maintenance period...no one was having a good day.
Little Ensign Gillespie was all bent out o'shape and laid down the law stating that the next person coming in late might as well bring a sea bag, 'cause they weren't leaving for a week...
...guess who was five minutes late the following day!
I walked into formation carrying my sea bag and told the boys I was as good as my word...spent the next week living onboard.
Didn't have any more tardiness issues though.
About a year into my first DIVO tour, we were having trouble in the Division with folks coming in a few minutes late while in the Yard. We'd finished a long deployment and were in the middle of a tough maintenance period...no one was having a good day.
Little Ensign Gillespie was all bent out o'shape and laid down the law stating that the next person coming in late might as well bring a sea bag, 'cause they weren't leaving for a week...
...guess who was five minutes late the following day!
I walked into formation carrying my sea bag and told the boys I was as good as my word...spent the next week living onboard.
Didn't have any more tardiness issues though.
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PO1 Kerry French
That probably earned you more respect than barking a thousand orders... I agree with all the above comments... that is very good leadership.
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PO2 Steven Erickson
BZ, sir! THAT is how you get the young petty officers to follow!
Wish all my O-gangers on the boat had been like "young Ensign Gillespie". Would've been an honor to be in YOUR div, sir!
Wish all my O-gangers on the boat had been like "young Ensign Gillespie". Would've been an honor to be in YOUR div, sir!
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Put this Junior Sailor in charge of something important (but not too mission critical) to where regs and standards have to be followed and nothing can be allowed to be "forgotten." Give this person the proper training and information to do this job (so it doesnt come back to bite you). This way, when something gets FUBAR, then this Sailor is the one responsible. Hard lessons taught the hard way sometimes have to be done.
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MSG (Join to see)
PO1 Kerry French - Oh, don't get me wrong. If I need to go punitive, I will. But, I have learned that there have been times where these hard lessons turned out for the best. Had a meat head of a Soldier that would do pretty much PO1 Simmons stated in his headline. Once this meathead got promoted to Specialist (E-4), I put him in charge of all kinds of things. Missions, convoys, briefings, etc. He learned damn hard and damn fast that his previous ways were not the best ways. Now, he has become one of my best NCO's
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MSG (Join to see)
GySgt John Olson - That is certainly one way. If he screws the pooch, the Gunner will chew his 4th point of contact (putting it nicely, of course)
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Ha! been there...done that, PO1!
I've always found that there are two types of personnel who don't "get it"...one feels like they're underutilized, the other isn't a good fit for the service.
With the first type, I found that handing them more responsibility (not "busy work", but real challenges) did the trick...let 'em see what the "big picture" is and how much of a part they really play. Get that young sailor to WANT to be a Chief (or O)...and realize it doesn't take as long as it seems when you're 19 or 20.
The second type has a real issue. Sometimes, and I stress "sometimes", they can be rescued by a combination of involved leadership from both the SEL and O side, and the direct impact of their shipmates getting them to play ball...most times, they're a mast or three away from Civ-Corps.
I've seen some real hard-cases turn into amazing sailors...and I've seen some zeros string along until the inevitable.
Bottom line, I've always felt that it's premature to diagnose someone as a "lost cause" till you've tried everything. One of the most amazing things I observed was the skill the Goat Locker had in motivating young sailors (even some wearing officer rank). I was fortunate enough to have some of the best Chiefs in the Navy (in my opinion)...my last was pretty much a "Dad" to all of us in the Department, and well respected from the Wardroom to the Crew's Berthing.
I've always found that there are two types of personnel who don't "get it"...one feels like they're underutilized, the other isn't a good fit for the service.
With the first type, I found that handing them more responsibility (not "busy work", but real challenges) did the trick...let 'em see what the "big picture" is and how much of a part they really play. Get that young sailor to WANT to be a Chief (or O)...and realize it doesn't take as long as it seems when you're 19 or 20.
The second type has a real issue. Sometimes, and I stress "sometimes", they can be rescued by a combination of involved leadership from both the SEL and O side, and the direct impact of their shipmates getting them to play ball...most times, they're a mast or three away from Civ-Corps.
I've seen some real hard-cases turn into amazing sailors...and I've seen some zeros string along until the inevitable.
Bottom line, I've always felt that it's premature to diagnose someone as a "lost cause" till you've tried everything. One of the most amazing things I observed was the skill the Goat Locker had in motivating young sailors (even some wearing officer rank). I was fortunate enough to have some of the best Chiefs in the Navy (in my opinion)...my last was pretty much a "Dad" to all of us in the Department, and well respected from the Wardroom to the Crew's Berthing.
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PO3 Jody Wangen
I guess I would have been your nightmare. I am the career airman sort. did 4 1/2 years. was never really interested in being in charge. passes my E-4 exam before I got out. have been working contract since 1989. in the same job I did in the navy. enjoy doing the low end of the job. my boss trusts me to work unsupervised and knows I will do the job well no matter what. and that I can make decisions when necessary. also get sent out DET a lot more than the others in my shop.
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LCDR (Join to see)
PO3, I wouldn't consider a reliable, well trained and stable self-starter to be a "nightmare"...more a God-send! I think PO1 is referring to the (admittedly few) sailors of any rank who seem to have difficulty getting into the routine so to speak. Authority is something many people "think" they want until they have it...the truly valuable personnel arrive at their position within the organization by virtue of simply doing what they do best, consistently. Sounds like you're a master in your field.
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Train the junior sailor in what needs to be done and counsel the sailor document the counseling(counseling chits). You may need to have another first with you too make sure everything is fair and too make sure that there is a witness to you trying to help your sailor. Keep your chief informed of the situation and get guidance from your chief as well. At some point if the sailor doesn't respond than the sailor may need too go to DRB and allow the chief mess too present to him/her their options based on their lack of performance and/or forgetfulness.
We have too try too save our junior guys and not just crush them but after you try, remember that we are in the military and we have too hold ourselves accountable and our juniors accountable as well.
We have too try too save our junior guys and not just crush them but after you try, remember that we are in the military and we have too hold ourselves accountable and our juniors accountable as well.
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In the '80's we had the fan room aft of the control room on our sub. If you were summoned for a meeting in the fan room it was serious. "In the fan room, nobody can hear you scream." Now for my serious answer: Have him evaluated for underlying medical or psych issues, most notably depression. I have first-hand experience with the damaging effects of depression -- including the behavior exhibited by the youngster. If he's cleared, find a fan room ;-)
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PO1 Glenn Boucher
Yeah back in the 80's onboard ship we had storeroom counseling that was not very pleasant for the person being counseled. But in our more evolved society I think the old fashioned ways have given way to talking and more feel good solutions.
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PO1 Robert Closson
In the 80's for my ship it was the paint locker and BM1 would handle all contact counseling as long as you made a request in the first class mess that morning
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PO1 Robert Closson
PO1 John Crafton - LOL Just a verbal request over coffee remember no documentation is proof it never happened LOL
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Does he really want to be in the Navy? It sounds to me like he wants out and is either to stupid or just afraid to say so. I would document everything, build a separations package and let him go. Inaptitude, failure to adapt to the military environment, failure to progress satisfactorily in a required training program, lack of effort, psychological or stress-related symptoms, lack of self-discipline, or minor disciplinary infractions are all examples of grounds for early separation. If you don't, he may end up hurting himself, hurting someone else, or doing something to end up in the brig, followed by a discharge.
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My first question is why haven't your other Petty Officers taken them aside and held a short talk to them? Because they should be taking care of problem sailors long before it becomes your problem.
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Keep him on duty until the job is done. Do a paper trail and if he keeps forgetting regs then you start having him brief the team on that reg.
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Isn't there a way to write them up? That would be the first step. If it continues then I would attempt to reduce them. The military is looking for people to get rid of. I think they may be a good candidate.
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PO2 Steven Erickson
BZ, Gunny!
I know "this" sailor. Writing him up won't do ANYTHING positive because he doesn't (or won't) understand his role as part of the crew. He won't care about a mark in his file.
As much as we'd like to think otherwise, discipline and behavior training are NOT the same in every service.
I know "this" sailor. Writing him up won't do ANYTHING positive because he doesn't (or won't) understand his role as part of the crew. He won't care about a mark in his file.
As much as we'd like to think otherwise, discipline and behavior training are NOT the same in every service.
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PO3 Jody Wangen
we had one of those at my command in 1989. it took a good woman to motivate him. disciple did nothing but make him resentful.
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LCDR (Join to see)
Lieutenant-Developing a leadership style is the single least covered thing in any officer training program (IMHO). There's a lot of talk about "respecting the senior enlisted" and a good dose of "being consistent" preached...but they rarely talk about the nuances of building a relationship with your subordinates. Some folks have laid down some much appreciated comments here; however, I'll do them justice by admitting that I had many more less stellar moments as well...there's a couple of personnel who probably wanted my head at times, and I likely deserved it too. What I do sincerely believe is the advice a Senior Chief gave me once early in my career; to "man the uniform"...rather than trying to let the rank determine how I chose to act. As officers, we can't forget that we live in a different world from the men. I won't claim I ever succeeded, but I always hoped my subordinates saw a kid from Tennessee is his early twenties not all that different from them on the inside...wearing a uniform representing two centuries of naval tradition and leadership forged from the Bon Homme Richard to Midway, Tonkin and the Persian Gulf. Regs exist to provide a standard. If that was all there was too it, we'd be like the Soviet officers during WWII. Rather, I believe the military continues to maintain the Wardroom and Chief's Mess precisely because the regulations need application filtered through leadership.
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SCPO (Join to see)
GySgt John Olson - There in lies the problem, "leadership failure". So many "leaders" are afraid to accept their own "failure" that they don't take the necessary actions that are warranted and have been granted to them per guidelines. If "leadership" would accept that "failure" is a part of the growing process, then we wouldn't have so many new "leaders" in the navy who are sub par. Learn from failure, not only from success. Failure is an experience and ultimately a better teacher than success.
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