Posted on Dec 27, 2013
When did the Army lose focus on personal responsibility?
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A comment in another thread sparked this discussion question.
Since when did we lose focus on accountability?
Some things are a leader responsibility. But the Army has become much like the rest of America: it's always someone else's fault.
Example: a Soldier fails his APFT or HTWT. They start blaming the SL. Even though the SL has told the Soldier you can't eat mcdonalds every day if the Soldier does it's still somehow the SLs fault.
A Soldier misses his medical appointment (this is huge where I'm at) and the PSGs gets a letter of concern.
A Soldier goes out and gets a DUI and they wanna know if your safety brief was good enough.
Sadly it extends to more important things like suicide.
What I mean by that is the Army has become a giant series of check the blocks to CYA. The moment someone is remotely upset we force them to go to the chaplain, MFLC, and a million other programs the Army has paid for rather than being 100% concerned about the problem. For example I'm ASIST T4T instructor. But if someone approached me with suicidal thoughts instead of fully talking to them as trained we take them to the million agencies to check the widgets first.
Don't take this as someone trying to shirk responsibility.
I'm just annoyed that the Soldier rarely gets fully blamed.
If a Soldier fails HTWT this is an individual responsibility. It shouldn't be the leaders fault that the Soldier eats like crap when they go home (assuming said leader has counseled them on proper eating and sent them to the nutritionist). Or if they fail the APFT it's suddenly the PSG fault even though the other 50 people passed.
The final straw was my objection to my PSGs getting LOC for their Soldier missing a medical appointment. I was told that it's the PSGs responsibility to ensure PFC Smith gets to medical. No. The Soldier made the appointment it's their job to get there. We are all adults. If we continue to treat Soldiers like children they will continue to act like children. The only exception would be if PSG Jones keeps PFC Smith at work and prevents him or her from going.
Thoughts?
Edited 12 y ago
Posted 12 y ago
Responses: 15
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The military went away from personal accountability and responsibility, when someone decided to micromanage leaders and blame them for the transgressions of their subordinates. When I came in the Army in the early 80's once you Graduated from IET you were an Individual and there was no more mass punishment, you screwed up you were held accountable and were punished you did it too many times you were chaptered. Today with the new crop of leaders soldiers are babied and leaders are held accountable when the babies screw up. I remember as a 1SG my CSM and BN commander were trying to hold me accountable for a soldier screw up and I flipped the scrip on them and told them seeing that you are trying to hold me accountable for an off duty off post incident. How about holding your self accountable also because you are in the chain of command and the soldier belongs to you also. That was the end of the conversation.
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CSM Colin Patterson
Leaders need to realize that soldiers are humans and regardless of how much you counsel a soldier. If they choose to go out there and get in trouble there isn't anything anyone can do about it even if you are the greatest leader. Which is why I believe holding leaders accountable for soldiers behavior is a crock of shit. I have seen senior people get in trouble and have not seen their chain of command held responsible. Why have a double standard and only hold junior leaders or company level leaders accountable for the transgressions of their soldier. If we are going to hold leaders responsible lets do it across the board if not, lets put it back on the individual and hold them responsible.
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CSM James Winslow
Exactly the way it should be. You cannot micromanage, control or regulate individual free will. You are a grownup now, with grownup responsibilities. You screw up, you pay the price. Get over it!
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In my 20 plus years in uniform I have never arrested someone for DUI who said " if only I had attended that safety briefing". They are for CYA and everyone knows it. If you show up late for work it is no ones fault but your own. If you fail an APFT that's pathetic as it is, but failing tape is a individual responsibility. I don't care if you are overweight, the Army's weight standards don't account for weight lifters, instead we are all supposed to look like anorexics.
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CSM Mike Maynard
There are not "weight standards", only "body fat" standards. The weights are screening tools to determine whether someone should be taped or not.
Not perfect, but I guarantee that the average BF of those under the screening weight is less than those over the screening weight and hence the reason for the screening weight.
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SFC (Join to see)
Correct, I just refer to them as standards because the Army stipulates a minimum and maximum.
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CSM James Winslow
Speaking of standards, does anyone else thing it is strange that Someone in their 50's has to maintain the same weight standard as someone in their 40's? Between 28-39 we are authorized a 2% gain in BF. How about 40-55?
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Another example. I had a SFC PSG before we deployed. I was a relatively new 1SG. This SFC couldn't even manage simple tasks or effectively manage his time. At all. I showed him how I stayed organized and I counseled him. After two months he just plain sucked.
It took every fiber of my being to get the BN to let me leave him behind (we had to cut some people anyhow).
I endured comments from other 1SG's about how this NCOs failures were probably a result of my lack of leadership. Wrong. You can only lead someone so far. Some people are never meant to lead a 30-40 person element. They just aren't organized.
If you show them organization melds and even recommend books on managing time and tasks and they still can't meet a single deadline that's not the leaders fault.
He has since cycled through about three or four positions and has been terrible at every one.
Some Soldiers just suck and are a product of over a decade at war and the war on numbers and I don't think any leader can necessarily fix stupid.
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SFC (Join to see)
The question is did someone properly rate this incompetent NCO so that they are not competitive for promotion? That is a trend that happens far too often which is the reason we have so many piss poor senior NCOs.
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CW2 (Join to see)
Yes, he was given a very bland 3/3 NCOER. Unfortunately I would have given him a RFC if I was his rater AND had been counseling him appropriately. Unfortunately I took over as 1SG in August 2012 and counseled him in October on paper with like ten other people present (it was that bad), but then that counseling was enough to get the BN to let me cut him from deployment. So he wasn't in my unit after that. His NCOER was definitely mediocre and in today's cuts he won't get picked up any time soon because of it - but it wasn't as bad as I wanted.
But then again I'm pretty harsh. I don't believe in rating someone as a "3" if they suck. Because "3" is a success.
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CSM James Winslow
Some people can't get it if you paint it purple and tie it to their necks. Not all the right cups in the closet, or forks in the drawer. Call it what you want, but the Peter Principle applies to the Army, just as in every organization.
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This is what happened after DOD bought into the TQL program. (Total Quality Leadership Program) What is wrong with your leadership that causes Johnny to not want to shine his shoes!!!
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CW2 (Join to see)
I mean there's certain situations where this makes a little sense. But like SGM said - someone can go and get drunk after you check up on them and did the right thing. Missing an appointment in my BDE you have to see the man. All the way from Soldier to commander and all leadership in between. At least it was when I was 1SG. I don't actually mind that so long as it isn't actually getting in trouble. The command emphasizing the importance of making appointment and saving money by not missing them makes sense. I just don't want people's careers negatively being affected because Johnny is a moron. If that makes sense.
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We as leaders have always been responsible for our Soldier's duty performance, and not always their personal conduct. It was a gradual erosion of our leaders' ability to take responsibility in their own actions (personnaly and professionally) that caused the American public (and our leaders) to lose faith in our ability to lead that sparked this.
Case in point- A Soldier was seen sober and awake at 1230 am one night by three different leaders. When asked what his plans were, he stated "going home and to bed". at 0430 the SAME MORNING, (three hours later) he was pulled over by the State police 50 miles away and blew a .104. Whose fault was it? Not the PLT leadership, but everyone was there, from the Team leader through PLT Leader. 14 Soldiers to answer for one Soldiers' misbehavior.
The Army has always been a reactionary organization- we try to institute controls and regulations to prevent bad things from happening to our Soldiers. What is happening here is an escalation of effects, trying to control a situation that cannot be effectively controlled- Human free will.
Our Soldiers are not automations that can be turned off and on at will, and this very unpredictability is what makes us sucessful in combat and gives our leadership headaches. What is the solution? Since we live under a microscope because of our Senior leaders' inability to accept (and explain) that s**t happens, and we are all adults, it will only get worse.
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CW2 (Join to see)
SGM this is an amazing post. Thanks for contributing I think it says very well (especially your example) what I was trying to articulate.
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We're seeing a lot of questions and debates along this line. Here is the thing. This is nothing new. You're just seeing the Army return to garrison. This is what most of us grew up with. For me I was also a SSG when all this was going on my first time. Don't take it to heart. Do your job as an NCO and when someone asks you why something happened or didn't happen as if it were your fault, make sure you have done everything you should. This is not something we'll ever get right. We just go back an forth on the pendulum.
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LTC Joseph Gross
I've seen that leadership that believes every failure is a failure of leadership but they never seem to look themselves. I'm with you, I hate when someone calls in an NCO or junior leader and takes him to task when there was nothing he could have done!
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This seems to be a societal issue, making it an Army problem (just like obesity).<br><br>The problem is actually two-fold: The offending Soldier's are not held accountable for personal responsibility and senior NCOs/officers are covering their asses (for some reason) and holding the wrong individual (SGT/SSG normally) responsible.<br><br>Society states that when a child turns 18 years old, they're an 'adult'...they need to act like it, take responsibility for their actions (right or wrong) and grow from them.
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This is an argument I had throughout my career as a junior enlisted and as an NCO, everyone who enlists is an adult 18+, some 17 year olds, but usually turn 18 by the time they get to 1st unit or close to it, if they are supposed to be adults, then treat them like it and hold them responsible for adult decisions and actions. Point blank.
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Thats the problem with the Army. Everyone is so stuck on the soldiers-are-a-direct-reflection-of-you bit that leaders fail to realize that soldiers are human too and will ultimatley do what they want to. We can preach til we're blue in the face but the final decision rests on that soldier who decides to go drink and drive after getting a safety briefing, to blow off PT and fail the APFT and tape. We as leaders can only guide and lead soldiers according to applicable regulations. Take children for example: you can tell them dont do this and dont do that but as soon as you turn your back what happens?
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Good question! Did they change the leadership principles at NCO schools? One of which is to seek responsibility and take responsibility for your actions. "NO EXCUSE" was always the answer the Tac NCO's were looking for when we messed up!
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