Posted on Dec 27, 2013
When did the Army lose focus on personal responsibility?
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A comment in another thread sparked this discussion question.
Since when did we lose focus on accountability?
Some things are a leader responsibility. But the Army has become much like the rest of America: it's always someone else's fault.
Example: a Soldier fails his APFT or HTWT. They start blaming the SL. Even though the SL has told the Soldier you can't eat mcdonalds every day if the Soldier does it's still somehow the SLs fault.
A Soldier misses his medical appointment (this is huge where I'm at) and the PSGs gets a letter of concern.
A Soldier goes out and gets a DUI and they wanna know if your safety brief was good enough.
Sadly it extends to more important things like suicide.
What I mean by that is the Army has become a giant series of check the blocks to CYA. The moment someone is remotely upset we force them to go to the chaplain, MFLC, and a million other programs the Army has paid for rather than being 100% concerned about the problem. For example I'm ASIST T4T instructor. But if someone approached me with suicidal thoughts instead of fully talking to them as trained we take them to the million agencies to check the widgets first.
Don't take this as someone trying to shirk responsibility.
I'm just annoyed that the Soldier rarely gets fully blamed.
If a Soldier fails HTWT this is an individual responsibility. It shouldn't be the leaders fault that the Soldier eats like crap when they go home (assuming said leader has counseled them on proper eating and sent them to the nutritionist). Or if they fail the APFT it's suddenly the PSG fault even though the other 50 people passed.
The final straw was my objection to my PSGs getting LOC for their Soldier missing a medical appointment. I was told that it's the PSGs responsibility to ensure PFC Smith gets to medical. No. The Soldier made the appointment it's their job to get there. We are all adults. If we continue to treat Soldiers like children they will continue to act like children. The only exception would be if PSG Jones keeps PFC Smith at work and prevents him or her from going.
Thoughts?
Edited 12 y ago
Posted 12 y ago
Responses: 15
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It is an interesting problem. I do find it amusing that we are supposed to take these soldiers into combat, and who are supposed to have our back, yet they can't even manage to make it to their own doctors appointment on time.
These soldiers, especially with the downsizing, need be counseled and chaptered out. If they can't even take care of themselves, they aren't going to be there for anyone else.
Of course, the above has a disclaimer that they have been properly counseled and trained and still fail.
These soldiers, especially with the downsizing, need be counseled and chaptered out. If they can't even take care of themselves, they aren't going to be there for anyone else.
Of course, the above has a disclaimer that they have been properly counseled and trained and still fail.
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I have to say that the one thing that bothers me the most is the blanket, one size fits all solution for individual problems. I can understand the mentality of wanting to put emphasis on leaders facilitating Soldiers, but I think it has gotten out of hand. Last time I checked, it was up to me to meet individual standards and to make my appointments. I am reminded of this every time I have an appointment scheduled and I get an email from my chain of command reminding me of it a few days in advance. It shouldn't fall on my 1SG's shoulders if I fail to report to an appointment, unless the 1SG refused to allow me to attend that appointment. Maybe that is the problem, too many leaders were unconcerned with anything that wasn't directly related to the mission, and the "powers that be" decided this is the best implementation...
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As leaders, we're always held accountable for what our Soldiers, Sailors, Airmen, or Marines do or don't do. As stated earlier, are we then holding them accountable? We have to start putting pen to paper and creating that paper trail when Joe Snuffy gets a DUI, or is late for work. Garrison discipline is something we've been lacking since the optempo picked up after 9/11. I've noticed a lot of NCO/Leaders wanting to avoid conflict by ignoring the situation hoping it will fix itself, or they complain about some Soldier to their peers but they don't confront the individual themselves fearing that person won't like them anymore. I'm sure we've all seen this before, "We need Leadership not Likership". We as leaders need to stop worrying about being liked by our Soldiers and start showing them leadership and the rest will take care of itself.
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CW2 (Join to see)
That's fine but not really what I'm talking about.
If you properly brief and counsel your Soldiers and have a good PROFESSIONAL relationship with them but one of them gets a DUI on the weekend. It's the NCOs fault? No. But they try to blame the NCO.
If you properly brief and counsel your Soldiers and have a good PROFESSIONAL relationship with them but one of them gets a DUI on the weekend. It's the NCOs fault? No. But they try to blame the NCO.
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CSM Mike Maynard
I'm all for personal accountability, first, but then you always have to be looking to see if the leadership is creating a climate that makes them responsible for the indiscipline.
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I personally had a CSM that would hold the NCO accountable for a Soldier's mistake. It bothered me to no end. I don't think he understood that we had families to take care of too. We spent the majority of our weekends in the barracks trying to make sure joe didn't make mistakes. It was pathetic and poor management.
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Are you then as TL's, SL's, etc holding your men personally responsible as you are being held? (I say men because that's all I have experience with)
Listen, in my 20+ years I was always held accountable for the actions of my men at every level. I then, in turn, made them accountable to me. That's how it's supposed to work. If my joe could not pass then do something about it. He is your responsibility. You are your leader's responsibility, and so on. Start a remedial PT group run by a high speed E4, etc., etc. I could list 20 ways to solve that problem and if we're really sitting here bitching about that ONE guy that just doesn't respond to anything then make sure your paperwork is in order and let's get that boy some extra duty, etc. etc.
If your guys see you taking care of the ones that do the right thing and doing something about the ones that don't, they'll take care of you.
You can't tell me I'm wrong- I'm not speculating here. This is how I've watched it work for 2 decades in a few different leg units. Take care of them and they'll take care of you - and I don't mean give them shit and baby them, I mean take care of them. Learn about them, get to know them, spend time with them off duty and genuinely care about them.
In other words, quit bitching and make it work. I'm reading these comments and it sounds like a bunch of NCOs that just want to be managers. They just want soldiers that are going to show up, punch a clock, do work, punch out and then go home. Good luck with that.
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CW2 (Join to see)
We do take their time and all that. That's what we are talking about here. It's always someone's fault even for stupid stuff.
Here's another example. You foster a great climate in your company. People report SHARP stuff. Some idiot gets drunk and date rapes someone else in your company. Is that the CoC fault? No. But they try to blame it. Now if that command has a bad climate sure.
Here's another example. You foster a great climate in your company. People report SHARP stuff. Some idiot gets drunk and date rapes someone else in your company. Is that the CoC fault? No. But they try to blame it. Now if that command has a bad climate sure.
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SGT Mike C.
Listen, the military has a long and glorious history of making the masses pay for the failures of individuals. We have to police our individuals to try and minimize the damage. That's the way it is and will always be.
Maybe this is to even the scales for all the PSGs, etc that have received 'thanks for showing up' BSMs down range, lol.
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CW2 (Join to see)
"Because this is the way we've always done it" mentality irritates me to no end. Things can change and they should.
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