When do you give up on a Soldier?

soldier first, mission always! This NCO and section should always be mission ready! Being a NCO means sacrifice of self for the section ,unit, battalion, brigade or country. We all signed the same check! There have been times sleep did not, will be times sleep will not find me but my section will always get rest and be mission capable. The section looks to their NCO(s) for that leadership, if they are giving a attitude of this nature .... counseling is a great motivator! good luck 2LT Turner

Something doesn't jibe here 2LT! May be my Marine training but it appears to me that a strong case of assertiveness and a sense of command on your part was lacking. No disrespect sir, I just don't know.....I'll cite an example: In the Corps if an NCO addressed a 2nd Looie in the manner you stated your NCO did, I will guarantee you that that NCO's ass is grass and the 2nd Looie is the lawn mower! Now, any enlisted person in the Corps could disagree with 2nd Looie, may offer suggestions or opinions. More times than often the Looie would consider it but you better know your damn facts and be respectful. Here is where the command portion comes in. You as a Looie know certainly that the power in a lawful order is immense. In the Corps we were often reminded that if given a lawful order you will carry it out. We were told that if you disagree with the order and mission you will carry it out then come back and complain! So where was the assertiveness to require this NCO to respond to your lack of command? Side Bar: "Old salts", NCO's that served in WWII, Korea, maybe now Vietnam Vets could and did challenge a 2nd Looies simply because they been there done that. I mean with the voice of a Marine drill instructor. But they always followed orders because the 2nd Looie was an assertive and commanding. No negotiations! Never give up on a soldier. Evidently he/she will give up on themselves for not having the proper leadership. They too on a given day can be leaders if led.

I was taught by SMG Harold Lane long ago one thing. Right or wrong you lead! Your new, you don't negotiate leadership! You listen, teach, encourage. As for your NCO with the attitude, tighten her ass up! An ounce of that can kill moral in a combat unit. You are responsible for the lives of all. If she has the balls to openly challenge you now, what is the world do you think is gonna happen when lead is flying? You'll come home with a bunch of bodies because you, not her, failed. Train your soldier to follow the orders, to obey. You are not there to be her buddy! She doesn't have to like you, she does have to work with you and give her best. If she is unwilling, relieve her of her command of your soldiers. I am old school and believe in old school soldiering! My SMG wasn't anyone's friend! He was hard on us! He lost people in Vietnam and it weighed on him for his mistakes. Once told me he was never gonna tell a family ever again the reason why their loved one was six feet down and a flag to remember them by. Then he told me to get my head outta my ass, or he would personally teach me how to lead! You need to read up on Patton and his leadership! Follow his rules before you fail! All do respect Sir, failure is not an option with our troops!

They way I read this is you are dealing with an NCO. 1st, she needs to be reminded that she is an NCO; 2nd, she needs to be handed, reminded of and read the NCO Creed (especially the first paragraph); 3rd, she needs to be reminded of the oath she took when she enlisted/re-enlisted I, (_________________), do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; and that I will obey the orders of the President of the United States and the orders of the officers appointed over me, according to regulations and the Uniform Code of Military Justice. (So help me God)." (Title 10, US Code; Act of 5 May 1960 replacing the wording first adopted in 1789, with amendment effective 5 October 1962); 4th, you are a commissioned officer and the order(s) you are giving, either directly or indirectly, is a direct order and willful disobedience of said order is punishable under Article 92 of the UMCJ and she could also be charged with "Dereliction of Duty" under Article 92; Disrespect (Article 89). There are many more Article that she could be charged under, with the possibility of a discharge. All this needs to be done on a General Counseling Form (DA Form 4856) and I have always worded my adverse counselings with the wording of the UCMJ and listed the appropriate Article. This was a real eye-opener for a lot of my soldiers, especially when they researched what punishment the Commander could administered to them.

That's is flat out refusal to train and disobeying a lawful order. At the bare minimum talk to your PSG and 1SG about a Bar to Continued Service. Either she shapes up or she lets herself get seperated by the Bar. As for it being an NCO, either recommend FG for her crimes and get her dropped a rank or get the ball rolling on an administrative reduction board. Allowing NCOs like this in the Corps is a direct result of "up or out" and she has proven that she doesn't have the required work ethic or attitude to be an NCO.

I can understand an individual being jaded or mistrusting due to previous leadership. But at some point we move on. It is previous leadership and not current leadership so you need to convey to this NCO that they need to lean into the mission and have just a little trust in the present. You can't help if they won't let you.

With that said you can't give them a mile of slack so they can drowned everyone in their misery. If the NCO is incapable of creating a schedule that completes the mission while also allowing for training it sounds like they need to be managed and if this becomes a trend someone else should be leading that element.

Troop welfare is important but you can't sacrifice the job for hurt feelings.

I think there are times when it is appropriate to give up on soldiers. When I was 20 I joined the guard. After a year I went active duty. I wasn't emotionally prepared to be in Germany without my wife for almost 7 months. I got into trouble with alcohol and finances. Eventually I was chaptered out and got a general discharge. I spent 9 years as a civilian and then 9-11 happened. A year later I went back to the guard with a completely different attitude. I retired with 20 years and was very satisfied because I was a completely different soldier the second time around. Having gotten a dose of responsibility when my CoC gave up on me ultimately helped me understand I needed to grow as a man. Ultimately it contributed to being a very effective SFC, and it contributed to my experience when I would have to make recommendations whether or not a soldier should be discharged or given another chance. One of the things I did, in addition to being the mess sergeant, was to take in soldiers from other sections and mentor them. A little more than half of the time I was able to figure out what the malfunction was and address that. I've seen several of those joes go on to be squared away NCOs. Giving up on someone isn't the same as throwing them out with the trash. Sometimes it is necessary for individual growth and to protect the effectiveness of the unit.

At the end of the day many people are selfish as to their own personal interests.

I have seen nothing work itself out with trying to bend over backwards to appease someone with an unprofessional approach to work and their own agenda (be it lazy, or burnt out, or simply criminal).

The only time I have seen soldiers suddenly do an about face with their nonsense is when I have lined up my ducks to chapter them out. Then it's all the sudden "oh wait, we can fix this".

Any extra chances you give a soldier is a risk you take on yourself. Because if something completely goes south you will have to articulate and support through documentation you had a valid reason to give the soldier another chance and it just can't be because you think everyone is worth saving, and you want to be a nice person.

The Army is full of extra chances. Counselings are an extra chance. Though folks freak out about them they are a documented nice approach to seek a corrective action. Counselings disappear once the working relationship ceases through a PCS or change of assignment for either party. So who cares.

What counselings are is documentation to cover you ass as a leader.

Give them a chance in a counseling.

Give them a second chance in the follow up to the counseling

Use the counselings as documentation on the NCOER's.

Use the finalized and HRC approved and iPerm'd NCOER as documentation to limit the NCO's advancement and schooling opportunities.

But you can't do anything without laying the foundation of documentation.

When I was a SPC, I got bossed around by SGT's and SSG's. I played the game, and did what was expected of my lane. When as a 2LT that lane no longer included conforming to the whims of Jr NCOs.

As leaders we like to think the answer is never. The reality is that is a "young leader" attitude before experience and wisdom set it. The reality is, leadership never gives up on a SM. SM's give up on leadership. Even when we as leaders are forced to utilize the system in terms of UCMJ and regulations to counsel and ultimately put a SM out of the service, we are always there, always willing to listen, to mentor, to guide, but the SM has got to be willing to take steps as well. All too often they do not.

Yours is a hard situation as you inherited an existing negativity towards leadership born by repeated experience. The problem is that the SM cannot reasonably hold you to account for the failures or perceptive failures of leaders before you. The term hope for the best, plan for the worst comes to mind here.

You need to lead without showing undo favoritism. Come in, talk to the SM's, find out their concerns, their gripes and so on and try to reach a compromise but at the end of the day, there is a mission to be accomplished whether all parties are happy with the way in which it is accomplished or not. The young Sgt has a mission requirement as well as a training requirement. It sounds to me like she has been coddled more than a bit and is used to using this as a way to get her wants met. She needs to be locked up at attention and reminded that she is not some wet behind the ears private, but a leader of men and women. That she has a creed and a duty to live up to. She would not allow a sm under her command speak to and act towards her in such a manner, so why is it acceptable for her?

Always best to extend yourself to retain/motivate/help; but, there comes a time when you can only do what you can do and it appears that you have gone *above and beyond.* At some point the cost (in time and effort at the expense of others) benefit doesn’t warrant the (hoped for) return. Long story short —-> get with the program or consider how such a *line* would be accommodated (sic) in private industry.