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In various forms, this question has been asked all the time here on RallyPoint. Now that I have returned to active duty, this time around as an officer, I find myself asking it.
I can tell you that in my heart, the answer is never. Conversation over.
But it's not that simple, people are not that simple. Legal and ethical responsibilities are not that simple. The fact is that not everyone belongs in the military; they can't hack it for one reason or another. But I don't think I, as a leader, am always the one to decide that; the soldier usually is. I identify when a soldier is choosing to quit, i.e. be lazy, be unprepared, lack discipline and tenacity, act unethically, disregard standards and thus choosing to fail. I won't be the reason a soldier is failing, the only excuse they'll have is their own words and actions. So we work and we train until we meet standards. I will believe in them and I will train them, they have to do the rest. This means believing in themself and aligning with my plans with proportionate effort.
I know that puts a lot on each of our shoulders, but isn't that the job we signed up for? We don't have to be the best; I can tell you without a doubt I am far from it. However, we must give our best in working to achieve the standards of our profession, if we are failing to meet them.
Therefore, we almost never give up on each other. The exception is simply being incapable of meeting standards, which is certainly possible. But I feel like that's the rarity. Or perhaps, I feel like we should go forward assuming the best of our soldiers, and that incapability is the rarity.
Please let me know if I am off base with this. What do you think?
I can tell you that in my heart, the answer is never. Conversation over.
But it's not that simple, people are not that simple. Legal and ethical responsibilities are not that simple. The fact is that not everyone belongs in the military; they can't hack it for one reason or another. But I don't think I, as a leader, am always the one to decide that; the soldier usually is. I identify when a soldier is choosing to quit, i.e. be lazy, be unprepared, lack discipline and tenacity, act unethically, disregard standards and thus choosing to fail. I won't be the reason a soldier is failing, the only excuse they'll have is their own words and actions. So we work and we train until we meet standards. I will believe in them and I will train them, they have to do the rest. This means believing in themself and aligning with my plans with proportionate effort.
I know that puts a lot on each of our shoulders, but isn't that the job we signed up for? We don't have to be the best; I can tell you without a doubt I am far from it. However, we must give our best in working to achieve the standards of our profession, if we are failing to meet them.
Therefore, we almost never give up on each other. The exception is simply being incapable of meeting standards, which is certainly possible. But I feel like that's the rarity. Or perhaps, I feel like we should go forward assuming the best of our soldiers, and that incapability is the rarity.
Please let me know if I am off base with this. What do you think?
Training
PRT (Army)
Leadership
Platoon Leader
Motivation
Posted >1 y ago
Responses: 27
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I have never "given up" on a Soldier, even when their actions fully warranted separation. There is a point where the resources required for the individual Soldier effects the rest of the team, squad, platoons effectiveness. The Soldiers actions determine whether they get separated, according to regulations. Substance abuse is a two strike and your out policy and regulation, failing two consecutive APFT's is separation. We can lead a horse to water, but we cannot make them drink. You can mostly tell when a Soldier is trying, and you can tell when a Soldier has quit on themselves. I would fight for the one who is trying, I will try to alter the one who has quit, point them to the resources required to assist them, but it is up to them to take the next step.
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When I came back from Vietnam in 1968 I was sent to Germany, I got promoted to Sgt and I had 2 kids working for me. One wouldn't take showers and the other one I found out cried every night and the rest of the squad were concerned about both of them. I eventually talked to the CO and we decided it would be best to have them discharged. I knew that the one that was despondent all the time wouldn't make it back if he was sent to Vietnam and might endanger others. I guess you have to weigh all the details and decide what's best for everyone and the Army.
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Sir, I think you are correct.
When you can not motivate a Soldier to improve, help a Soldier to perform and they continue to fail to reach even the minimum standard, then they have given up themselves and you can not do it for them.
When you can not motivate a Soldier to improve, help a Soldier to perform and they continue to fail to reach even the minimum standard, then they have given up themselves and you can not do it for them.
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As long as the service member is willing to try, I will get the senior enlisted to help. The problem is time. There is only so much of it for you and the people below you. You have to make that decision, when the SM is taking up more time than they can ever possibly contribute, and the time you need to spend on the SM's that are performing is getting impacted.
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For me it takes knowing my soldiers. Knowing when they are going through something and thus choosing to give up or when they simply give up and don't want to be a soldier anymore. There's a distinct difference and it isn't the same with any two soldiers. I can retrain a soldier who feels helpless. It's another thing to have a soldier that isn't retainable due to their willful actions. I've had both types of soldiers before. I try and do all that I can before I write a soldier off.
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1LT (Join to see)
How would you want your LT to motivate you in working harder, in setting standards higher?
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SSG (Join to see)
1LT (Join to see) honestly sir, out of all the LTs I've worked with throughout my career, I've only had one that motivated, helped develop, and guided me. Most LTs I've worked with shouldn't be leaders much less LTs. In no way am I saying I think that's true of all LTs, just my experience so far.
Now, let say moving forward if I had a clean slate to work with a LT, let's say you for example. The biggest thing I tell LTs when they take over as my PL, is learn to leverage their authority with the experience of the PSG and SLs. There is a clear role for LTs and I'm not trying to say the LT ranks are useless at all. However, your PSG and CDR will develop you into being a leader. Concurrently tap on your NCOs to help you. The two way communications between a LT and his/her NCOs will make or break the effectiveness of a platoon. I believe that is a priority in a LT setting standards, as I've seen LTs come in and think because they're ROTC or West Point graduates they're somehow more efficient as a leader than NCOs with multiple deployments, especially in infantry.
Establish a connection with your NCOs, and ensure you have not only clear, but realistic and attainable expectations of them, them move to the platoon as a whole. I say it like that because there is a sentiment in the army that NCOs just don't work well with their PL and Joes see it and emulate the NCOs. That's bullshit to me. The PSG and PL need to have a unified voice, the SLs and TLs need to be on the same page, and the junior enlisted will follow.
Now, let say moving forward if I had a clean slate to work with a LT, let's say you for example. The biggest thing I tell LTs when they take over as my PL, is learn to leverage their authority with the experience of the PSG and SLs. There is a clear role for LTs and I'm not trying to say the LT ranks are useless at all. However, your PSG and CDR will develop you into being a leader. Concurrently tap on your NCOs to help you. The two way communications between a LT and his/her NCOs will make or break the effectiveness of a platoon. I believe that is a priority in a LT setting standards, as I've seen LTs come in and think because they're ROTC or West Point graduates they're somehow more efficient as a leader than NCOs with multiple deployments, especially in infantry.
Establish a connection with your NCOs, and ensure you have not only clear, but realistic and attainable expectations of them, them move to the platoon as a whole. I say it like that because there is a sentiment in the army that NCOs just don't work well with their PL and Joes see it and emulate the NCOs. That's bullshit to me. The PSG and PL need to have a unified voice, the SLs and TLs need to be on the same page, and the junior enlisted will follow.
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SSG (Join to see)
1LT (Join to see) anytime sir! Congrats on commissioning over. Hope you have great assignments in your career.
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You don't. Even the ones that give up on themselves. You still push for and support every day until its their last in the Army, and even then let them know you are there if they need assistance. Even the ones that piss you off, suck at their jobs, fail PT, get in trouble, whatever. You don't have to hold their hands and baby them or coddle them, but I've learned even with those that are failing and have given up on themselves, as a leader you still have to be the motivation and that consistent energy of support. Their failures or issues could be related to much more than you know, and may not belong in the Army... but everybody still needs support. I have had so many Soldiers that had bad attitudes or were generally shitty, but would still go out of their way to help me out if I asked or told because I showed that even though they were fucking up, I'm still going to support them. Its not my job to determine who gets support and who doesn't. As leaders, its our job to inspire and motivate others to do tasks that they may not normally want to do. My job is to provide unbiased and consistent leadership to every Soldier assigned to me whether or not I like them personally. They can choose to accpet or adhere to my advice, or it cancgo in one ear/ out the other... but I will always be that leader a Soldier can talk to or ask questions.
I don't see pushing someone out of the Army as giving up however. Like you said, not everyone belongs on the Army, but I would say those getting forced out especially need support because they're gonna have a very quick transition and rude awakening when they have to suddenly be a civilian and provide for themselves things the Army provides
I don't see pushing someone out of the Army as giving up however. Like you said, not everyone belongs on the Army, but I would say those getting forced out especially need support because they're gonna have a very quick transition and rude awakening when they have to suddenly be a civilian and provide for themselves things the Army provides
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Without knowing what the failure is, there is no way to properly give advice.
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