Posted on Mar 22, 2014
When is it OK to display religious verses in military settings? What about your barracks?
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Touchy subject, but a battle wanted me to post this to get feedback. (seriously his question, but it was good enough for me ask, he thinks RP is like FB) An Air Force Cadet wrote a Biblical Verse on his white board on his room door. Not in his room, but on the outside facing the hallway. After a few months he was instructed to erase it or be released from Academy. He erased it after a short debate with his leadership. I'm assuming he reported this to the media as civilian advocates are trying to boycott the academy now. The verse was a quote that encouraged the Cadet every morning. That's the simplest version of the story.<div><br></div><div>So my question.<div><br><div>1. We swore an Oath of Enlistment that contains "So help me God"</div><div>2. CPT <span style="font-size: small; color: rgb(84, 84, 84); font-family: arial, sans-serif; line-height: 18 [login to see] 39453px;">Kamaljeet S. Kalsi authorized to wear turban and beard for religious reasons</span></div><div><span style="font-size: small; color: rgb(84, 84, 84); font-family: arial, sans-serif; line-height: 18 [login to see] 39453px;">3. Soldiers don't deploy or are sent home from deployments if they claim its against their religion.</span></div></div><div><span style="font-size: small; color: rgb(84, 84, 84); font-family: arial, sans-serif; line-height: 18 [login to see] 39453px;">4. When was religion considered indecent, sexist, racist or hatred. (I should retake my EO course on ALMS)</span><span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 16px; line-height: 22px;"> </span></div><div><span style="font-size: small; color: rgb(84, 84, 84); font-family: arial, sans-serif; line-height: 18 [login to see] 39453px;"><br></span></div><div><font color="#545454" face="arial, sans-serif" size="2"><span style="line-height: 18 [login to see] 39453px;">If a Soldier can't adhere to regulations or standards, they should not be able to enlist or be discharged. Why isn't it that black & white? I started this post thinking "Commandant's discretion" is that the best answer.</span></font></div></div>
Air Force
Religion
Doctrine
Policy
Posted >1 y ago
Responses: 44
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The Air Force Academy was justified by making the cadet take the verse down. The verse was displayed in a place where other people could see it. We all have the right to freedom of religion but we don't have the right to "force" our religion on other people. "God" is a title. God can be whatever "God" a person believes in (ex: Allah means God in Arabic). The CPT example has no relevance in this issue unless he was trying to make someone else wear a turban and beard. Look bottom line is freedom is freedom; not just when it is something we believe in or identify with.
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SFC (Join to see)
AR 601-280 is a RAR with a Sept 2011 date. I remember swearing my oath in 2002. "Stand like this, raise your right arm, now repeat after me." There was no briefing of any of this regulation. Anyone have AR 601-280 that was used before 2002? I'm just curious if the words are verbatim with the RAR.
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SFC (Join to see)
How is posting a bible verse shoving a religion down somebodies throat? By this thinking I should have been brainwashed to "Don't worry, be happy" by Bobby McFerrin in 1988.
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CW3 (Join to see)
It isn't. You can walk away from something posted on a whiteboard on the door of someone's barracks room. As long as I can walk away from whatever's being said, I don't feel someone is pushing their religion down my throat.
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Ok I here I go again.
Just because someone is walking down a hall and sees a scripture posted on someone's personal whiteboard;
1 hello grow up and don't read it you whining ass little punk
2 what's the difference between a Christian posting something from the Bible or a Muslim posting something from the Koran. Oh yea maybe because your dumbass doesn't recognize anything from the Koran.
3 as far as the Air Force quite being so PC
4 people life is hard enough without having to worry about stupid shit.
Just because someone is walking down a hall and sees a scripture posted on someone's personal whiteboard;
1 hello grow up and don't read it you whining ass little punk
2 what's the difference between a Christian posting something from the Bible or a Muslim posting something from the Koran. Oh yea maybe because your dumbass doesn't recognize anything from the Koran.
3 as far as the Air Force quite being so PC
4 people life is hard enough without having to worry about stupid shit.
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<p>My, how things change. I still have the New Testament and Psalms bible imprinted with the U.S. Naval Academy crest that I was issued on Induction Day at USNA. I was not a professing Christian at the time, so technically it was forcing a religion down my throat...though I did not see it as such.</p><p><br></p><p>I became a Christian while in the Navy, and I laid my life on the line day after day to preserve the rights of others to be able to exercise their rights. Those rights include the right to speak out against my Christianity (but not the right to persecute me for my Christianity).</p><p><br></p><p>The whole "tolerance" movement and PC movement is not so much about allowing everyone to hold their own beliefs and be able to talk about them, but more about shouting down the beliefs of others as "intolerant" and "hate speech" when those beliefs make "someone" uncomfortable (usually the one shouting the loudest).</p><p><br></p><p>Let me tell you, I had to deal with a lot more than just "uncomfortable" situations both during my plebe year at USNA (with all kinds of truly nasty things being screamed in my face on a daily basis in the name of training) and during my time in the fleet. I survived all of it just fine, and matured in my viewpoint, and actually learned how to interact on a rational level with all kinds of people and all kinds of situations.</p><p><br></p><p>In short, writing a bible verse on the whiteboard outside a cadet room is fine. It should spark discussion, debate, and intelligent conversation. Carrying scripture verses tucked inside his cover out of sight should be fine, providing comfort. Wearing a button or sticker on his uniform saying something like, "Turn or Burn!" would be completely inappropriate.</p><p><br></p><p>My .02.</p>
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LT Ken Anderson
LT Ganahl and I both had similar experiences at Canoe U. That being said, I have learned that in a country where everyone now seems to be insane, they lock up those who are not.
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You can use religious verses to teach lessons. We quote people all day, you can quote the bible if it serves that same purpose.
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1st we are allowed but never encouraged to take the "so help me god" sentence out of enlistment oath. We are allowed but not encouraged to practice or not practice our lack of belief as we see fit. We are often singled out, often passed over for positions within the unit, and possible career implications because we are not part of the god fearing personnel. I have been ostrisized and discriminated against throughout my career simply because I don't believe what others believe. Specifically my course chief at BNCOC (ALC) told me I wouldn't graduate if I didn't now my head during the benediction at the ceremony. I have been continually subjected to Christian group prayers at every thing ranging from before jumps to change of command ceremonies.
I think everyone has a right to believe whatever they want. I wish my countrymen actually believed it as well. The person to my left or right could believe anything, I don't care. However what I believe seems to be something that people are concerned about.
I don't send people only to the chaplain or to the MFLC. I give them both options.
Why is freedom of and freedom from religion such a hard concept, religion should not play a part in our government nor our military. Hands, feet and belief system inside the cart at all times during your trip through the military.
I don't think that is too much to ask.
I think everyone has a right to believe whatever they want. I wish my countrymen actually believed it as well. The person to my left or right could believe anything, I don't care. However what I believe seems to be something that people are concerned about.
I don't send people only to the chaplain or to the MFLC. I give them both options.
Why is freedom of and freedom from religion such a hard concept, religion should not play a part in our government nor our military. Hands, feet and belief system inside the cart at all times during your trip through the military.
I don't think that is too much to ask.
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Personally, I believe that if someone wants to display their faith, then go right ahead. Again, evangelizing someone isn t the right way to go about it. However, if a Muslim person wants to display the Crescent Moon, then they have the right to do that, a Jewish person wants to display the Star of David, go right ahead. No one should EVER have to feel shame in a display of their faith.
If the hammer gets brought down in such a matter, its persecution.
If the hammer gets brought down in such a matter, its persecution.
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If someone is offended by me displaying a religious verse, my first inclination would be to pick up my Bible and thump them in the head with it, then I'd want to preach fire and brimstone to them!
HOWEVER, since Jesus says "noooooo" I'd humbly take the verse down :(
I say this because my will always takes second place to His will.
1 COR 8 v. 9; 2 COR 6, 3
HOWEVER, since Jesus says "noooooo" I'd humbly take the verse down :(
I say this because my will always takes second place to His will.
1 COR 8 v. 9; 2 COR 6, 3
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LCpl Steve Wininger
We have one thing they can never stop, Prayer. They can try to limit the exposure they get from people, but like I have told many before, you can block me, shut me out, or ignore me, but you cannot run or hide from God, even if you don't believe.
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CW3 (Join to see)
I was brought back here by someone else's post that I wanted to comment to, but I found this first. I find it offensive that you and others would preach at or pray for someone who has informed you that it offends them. I'm sure you feel that you are right, and your belief may say it is ok, but I'm sure there are things that offend you. how would you like it if someone offended you, you said you don't like that or believe it and they "thumped you on the head" and just carried on?
As for the marine, the flying spaghetti monster will find you asa much as your god will find me.
As for the marine, the flying spaghetti monster will find you asa much as your god will find me.
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SSG V. Michelle Woods
CW2 Dixon, if you read the next sentence in my post you would see where the good Lord corrected me.
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Not everyone swore an oath "so help me god". Way back in 1984 I "affirmed" my oath of enlistment "so help me", no religion whatsoever. I also had Atheist on my dog tags, way back then and still today.
In his room (if a private room) I would have no problem with it. In his locker even in a shared room, no problem. On his desk or his part of the wall in a shared room gets tougher, but probably still OK, though I would qualify that with only if it didn't offend his roommate.
Out in the hallway for everyone? How in any way is that for his own motivation every morning. Facing outward is just advertising/proselytizing, and that has NO PLACE in a military setting.
In his room (if a private room) I would have no problem with it. In his locker even in a shared room, no problem. On his desk or his part of the wall in a shared room gets tougher, but probably still OK, though I would qualify that with only if it didn't offend his roommate.
Out in the hallway for everyone? How in any way is that for his own motivation every morning. Facing outward is just advertising/proselytizing, and that has NO PLACE in a military setting.
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LTC (Join to see)
No sir, you are only within your rights to share your faith in a military setting when it is not made clear to you that such proselytizing is unwanted. Once told that it is unwanted, it should end then and there.
It is no different than displaying a democrat or GOP candidate's banner on your outside facing door to try and convince others to vote your way. Telling people to vote is fine, telling them how to vote is not.
It is no different than displaying a democrat or GOP candidate's banner on your outside facing door to try and convince others to vote your way. Telling people to vote is fine, telling them how to vote is not.
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LTC (Join to see)
DoD directive 1020.02 provides the same protections for military members as for civilian employees and clearly governs proselytizing.
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Simply because there are many religions, each with their own beliefs, it's best to leave religion out of all military settings. They belong in their individual places of worship, or in your home.
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LTC (Join to see)
Oh wow, down votes.
My use of language is meant to emphasize the offenseive way that the religious speak to those of different/no faith exactly as your example points out so well.
My use of language is meant to emphasize the offenseive way that the religious speak to those of different/no faith exactly as your example points out so well.
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LTC (Join to see)
Yes Maj Bollinger, we do have Muslim, Jewish, Buddhist etc. chaplains. When was the last time you ever heard one give the invocation or benediction at a military ceremony?
I remember the first time I relinquished company command our BN chaplain was Jewish. I as the outgoing commander am atheist, the incoming commander was buddhist. We both wanted to remove the invocation/benediction portions of the ceremony, and in the alternative, wanted the Jewish chaplain to serve with a completely secular message.
The BN commander respected neither of our wishes and brought in a Baptist chaplain from one of our sister BNs to give Christian ceremonies.
THAT was offensive.
I remember the first time I relinquished company command our BN chaplain was Jewish. I as the outgoing commander am atheist, the incoming commander was buddhist. We both wanted to remove the invocation/benediction portions of the ceremony, and in the alternative, wanted the Jewish chaplain to serve with a completely secular message.
The BN commander respected neither of our wishes and brought in a Baptist chaplain from one of our sister BNs to give Christian ceremonies.
THAT was offensive.
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LTC (Join to see)
There change of command ceremony IS the outgoing commander's ceremony. In my case, however, both the outgoing (Atheist) and the incoming (Buddhist) commanders discussed the issue, and wanted no invocation at all. Once that was denied, we wanted a secular invocation.
Change of command is not a Christian function, never has been, never will be.
Change of command is not a Christian function, never has been, never will be.
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It is my understanding of history that this nation was founded due in part to religious persecution. With that being said, my feeling is that our Nation is a Christian nation. We use our faith to endure. Look at our National Songs, our Pledge of Allegiance, our currency. I am sure most of us feel the same. I think that the Academy was being reactionary in this instance. God, in every sense is a major part of who we as a people of the United States of America.
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CW3 (Join to see)
So basically what you're saying is screw the Atheists, Buddhists, and Pagans and Wiccans, right?
No. America was founded on the idea of freedom to believe what one chooses to believe. We are not a Christian nation, we are a secular nation with a Christian plurality. Most of the founding fathers were Deists, not specifically Christians.
This is what irritates me, because unless Christianity is being pushed on everyone, my fellow Christians cry persecution. That's not what Jesus was all about.
No. America was founded on the idea of freedom to believe what one chooses to believe. We are not a Christian nation, we are a secular nation with a Christian plurality. Most of the founding fathers were Deists, not specifically Christians.
This is what irritates me, because unless Christianity is being pushed on everyone, my fellow Christians cry persecution. That's not what Jesus was all about.
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