Posted on Mar 22, 2014
When is it OK to display religious verses in military settings? What about your barracks?
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Touchy subject, but a battle wanted me to post this to get feedback. (seriously his question, but it was good enough for me ask, he thinks RP is like FB) An Air Force Cadet wrote a Biblical Verse on his white board on his room door. Not in his room, but on the outside facing the hallway. After a few months he was instructed to erase it or be released from Academy. He erased it after a short debate with his leadership. I'm assuming he reported this to the media as civilian advocates are trying to boycott the academy now. The verse was a quote that encouraged the Cadet every morning. That's the simplest version of the story.<div><br></div><div>So my question.<div><br><div>1. We swore an Oath of Enlistment that contains "So help me God"</div><div>2. CPT <span style="font-size: small; color: rgb(84, 84, 84); font-family: arial, sans-serif; line-height: 18 [login to see] 39453px;">Kamaljeet S. Kalsi authorized to wear turban and beard for religious reasons</span></div><div><span style="font-size: small; color: rgb(84, 84, 84); font-family: arial, sans-serif; line-height: 18 [login to see] 39453px;">3. Soldiers don't deploy or are sent home from deployments if they claim its against their religion.</span></div></div><div><span style="font-size: small; color: rgb(84, 84, 84); font-family: arial, sans-serif; line-height: 18 [login to see] 39453px;">4. When was religion considered indecent, sexist, racist or hatred. (I should retake my EO course on ALMS)</span><span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 16px; line-height: 22px;"> </span></div><div><span style="font-size: small; color: rgb(84, 84, 84); font-family: arial, sans-serif; line-height: 18 [login to see] 39453px;"><br></span></div><div><font color="#545454" face="arial, sans-serif" size="2"><span style="line-height: 18 [login to see] 39453px;">If a Soldier can't adhere to regulations or standards, they should not be able to enlist or be discharged. Why isn't it that black & white? I started this post thinking "Commandant's discretion" is that the best answer.</span></font></div></div>
Air Force
Religion
Doctrine
Policy
Posted >1 y ago
Responses: 44
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My take....<div><br></div><div>Atheist dont believe in God so if you go to an atheists room and his white board is blank would you file a complaint that he doesn't have a bible verse on his white board?</div><div><br></div><div>NO!</div><div><br></div><div>Because no one should give a crap what someone else displays as long as its not derogatory.</div>
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SSG Kevin McCulley
There is a difference between belief in no God and no belief in God. Which one do you think an atheist is?
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Your religion should be very much like your genitals. Don't wave it around in public, keep it away from those below the age of consent, and not to be discussed or displayed.
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SFC Michael Hasbun
Actually, I like the way you phrased that... either way, each party can assume it refers to the other.. Have you ever considered running for office? You have my vote...
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SSG Stephen Arnold
The argument to hide one's faith is a direct violation of the First Amendment in the pesky little inconsequential document that we swore to defend. There is a clause that is ignored when making such an argument: "...and the free expression thereof." Any infringement upon that expression, such as keep it at home or in church, is a direct violation of the aforementioned amendment.
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I'm not "religious" but what is the difference, besides where they quote comes from, from a scripture in the Bible being publicly displayed versus a motivational quote from a professional speaker that someone looks up too? The only difference is where it came from. The person/people who made a big deal out of this need to look elsewhere to get their 5 minutes of national fame.
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SPC Jessica Stewart
I understand your point SGT however I would simply walk by it and ignore it and not make issue of it. I have done many times in regards to many different things that I didn't agree with, including religion. Reason being, I know they have the right to believe whatever they want as well as I. I CHOOSE to leave it be. Just because a lot of people CHOOSE not to leave it be and let those rights play out as they should, doesn't make it ok.
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SPC Jessica Stewart
I choose to not engage it. If I don't engage it then it doesn't affect me and I go on with my life as normal. If I choose to engage it then I am bringing whatever comes my way upon myself, whether its positive or negative. I am a strong believer in treat others the way I want to be treated. So, if I don't want someone to tell me what I should or shouldn't be able to put on my wall that others can see, then I sure am not going to do the same to someone else.
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SSG Gerhard S.
@SPC Jessica Stewart well said. It is often ignored in such arguments that one must CHOOSE to be offended by the actions or words of others. Ones actions, whatever they be potentially be deemed offensive by any number of people, it is only those who choose to be offended who give voice to their offense.
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It is my belief, this is all it is, that if we are to make rules for one religion, then it should be enforced for all religions. IE if this individual is not allowed to express his views, then Soldiers will not be allowed, beards, of specific religious headgear. If you are going to make rules for the allowance of said religious beliefs, then one should be able to express their beliefs no matter what their belief is. Once again, this is my opinion, it is not regulation or doctrine. Just the personal thoughts of this individual.
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Freedom of religious expression applies to every religion EXCEPT Christianity
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SSG Kevin McCulley
I am amazed how wrong all of you are on the Establishment Clause. The reason it was put in the Constitution is because several state governments already had established state religions and they did not want the federal government to show preference to one religion over another. End of story.
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SSG Kevin McCulley
I bet most of you did not even know that the Bill of Rights restrictions did not hold to state governments until very recently. This is why it is duplicated in state constitutions.
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This is all above my pay grade. Let me just say that I would not have made it through my tour without Ephisians 6.
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SFC (Join to see)
Never have I wanted to down vote a comment such as this "Negative. You are wearing the uniform of the United States Army. Comments like that are why we were accused of waging a second crusade against Muslims during OIF 1 by their religious leaders. Our duty to our country and it's people has nothing to do with religion. If you cannot separate your faith from your duty, you are most certainly in the wrong profession." Who are you to tell SPC Hunt how he made it through combat? What went through your mind when you posted this? I do not know what you or SPC Hunt went through...but I will never belittle anybody's methods to keep sane in an insane environment. Your second point about the Crusades.. yes, I was in OIF1, I did hear that. It is called propaganda; they also thought our sunglasses gave us x-ray vision and we had AC units in our helmets.
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SFC Stephen Carden
As recently as 2012, I heard Afghanis saying that they thought our observation balloons had the capability to see inside their houses and they were mad because they thought we were looking at their women when they undressed or bathed. Propaganda is very effective when done right, and apparently they did it right because it worked on SSG Hasbun!
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CPT Marc Serrá
"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free practice thereof..."
It can not prohibit the free exercise of religion....making the cadet erase his scripture is prohibiting him from exercising his religion. Pretty simple when you think about it.
It can not prohibit the free exercise of religion....making the cadet erase his scripture is prohibiting him from exercising his religion. Pretty simple when you think about it.
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SSG Daniel Deiler
When you put on the uniform YOU are still an INDIVIDUAL with your own morals and beliefs. We are not mindless robots or anybody's property. Our uniform may REPRESENT the United States and the U.S. Armed Services, but we are all still individuals free to feel however we want to. How DARE you tell him he is wrong for his own personal beliefs. I will not nor will anybody else tell SSG Hasburn how you WILL think or feel. Who gave you that right?!? That's what I thought. Nobody. You sure the he double hockey sticks are not in my food chain that's for sure.
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This is a very tough subject. I think it depends on whether you treat the outside of the Cadet's door as their private space or as Air Force property.<div><br></div><div>Personally, it does seem a bit overly sensitive to forbid it. It's basically the Cadet's personal door, and I don't see any harm in it, though it begs the question of where you draw the line after that. I also think writing something like that on the outside of a commander's door, or on the outside of a unit door, is a whole different question. </div><div><br></div><div>That said, Service Academies are well known for having severely limited rights imposed on their Cadets... for example not being allowed to wear civilian clothes even on weekends. So take whatever restrictions you have on active duty, and turn it up a few notches at the Academies. </div><div><br></div><div>As far as the larger question of the fact we have "So help me God" in Oaths, and "In God we Trust" on our money, and Chaplains in our units, yet separation of Church and State, is a reflection that this subject is ever evolving in our nation's history.</div>
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CW3 (Join to see)
The 'So Help Me God' part is optional on the oaths. I didn't have to take mine when I commissioned. I did, as I see myself as a progressive Christian and do believe in God... but I didn't have to.
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SFC (Join to see)
Did they give you the option to say it or not, or was this a personal choice at that moment?
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Let me introduce where I stand: I'm atheist, I personally don't believe/understand a lot of the differences with different religions but the single factor in them all is you have faith in a higher power. Simply because I don't share that faith gives me no right to stop you from keeping yours. I personally agree with many of the values that religion teaches and some of the verses make sense to the point they are beautiful. If it makes someone happy or inspires them to be a better person, then why judge them. Nothing about religion is indecent and nothing about religion is offensive as long as one religion puts down another's faith
When we are somewhere and a prayer is offered, I respectfully bow my head and remain silent. It's called respect for someone else's views and as long as it doesn't hinder the mission then it should be allowed. I said the full Oath and meant it. I say the full Pledge of Allegiance and I take it very seriously
When we are somewhere and a prayer is offered, I respectfully bow my head and remain silent. It's called respect for someone else's views and as long as it doesn't hinder the mission then it should be allowed. I said the full Oath and meant it. I say the full Pledge of Allegiance and I take it very seriously
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As long as they let Muslim students write out Koran verses, I don't see a problem with it
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SSG (Join to see)
SSG Maravi, many other cadets of differing faiths, to include Muslims, put up verses from their respective spiritual tomes in support of the discriminated cadet.
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Makes about as much sense as trying to boycott a TV program because it's offensive. Don't like it, change the channel. Or maybe you could sue the maker of the TV you are watching because you're too stubborn to change the channel. If you don't like what somebody wrote on their whiteboard outside "their" room, don't read it. He wrote the verse to encourage himself, and if anybody else felt encouraged, then that's a bonus. But if someone feels discouraged, they are free "NOT" to read it. It's not as though he instructed others to read it, but it was there if anybody wanted to. I bet if he posted "I support GLBT in the military" or "I support anti-gun laws" or even "I support anything liberal-minded", he would have been applauded for speaking his mind, but because he posts something conservative he is admonished. Since when did the military become so liberal?
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