Posted on May 16, 2018
Where would one go to find out about an Apache incentive flight?
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Where would one go to find out about an incentive flight? I know it has to climb the chain all they up to BG but could some one point me to the right direction, so I can attempt to try for an Apache incentive flight?
Posted >1 y ago
Responses: 6
When our guard unit switched from AH-64a to AH-64d models in 2010 they used the last two remaining aircraft to give about 20 incentive flights, mostly to those who had been on the Afghanistan deployment 4 years earlier. A handful (maybe 7-8) were granted to newer valued Crewcheifs who were full-timers. The flights all were administered by 2 approved unit flight instructors.
Our flights were 30 minutes long and covered a couple hundred miles and a lot of altitude. Once we were up in the air and off the airfield, I was handed the controls for the remainder of the flight. The Instructor talked me through the entire flight and only took over again right before landing (after a short hover attempt was attempted, a little less skillfully, haha). He challenged me to try a few maneuvers including a 30 degree bank turn, (feels like you’re going to fall out the window) which didn’t require as much skill as they did guts. I was incredibly grateful to the unit and that test pilot. As a crewcheif of 9 years, I learned that the machine I had maintained flies like a Ferrari sports car in the rotary wing world. This gave me a whole new respect for my job, my aircraft, and even the flight instructor who took me up. (He was one of the more curmudgeonly and finicky pilots to work with, as a ground crew. Then he was a total bad ass and incredibly friendly in the air, which was a shock because of how strict and hard liner he was on the ground. To think, I was actually bemoaning that I was assigned him as my pilot.)
I immediately began considering flight school seriously and finally put my packet together after 3-4 years of prodding from a handful of our pilots and leaders. In the end, I separated to finish college. Then I was got married and the misses asked me not to join up again.
I share all this to illustrate:
1. Our incentive flights were way, Way more than just a hover. It was an absolutely breathtaking, once-in-a-lifetime experience; and one worth pushing for!
2. We (enlisted, and leadership) pushed for incentive flights a few times, starting in 2005 after returning from Afghanistan. We were denied, if I recall correctly, twice. Then finally granted them in 2010, four years later when transferring out our old fleet that was headed to depot for conversion to delta models. For some reason this was an easier time for our leaders to justify it. (We couldn’t break any of the planes we need to maintain operational readiness?)
3. These served a real purpose for the unit leadership. They seemed to be trying to recruit for flight school internally (although they were NOT restricting who received the flights, a few old guys went). They were also losing a lot of their experienced members who were disenchanted with the unit complexion and leaving the unit for various reasons. This was a time of upheaval, not long after command staff and leadership changes that had created somewhat of a caustic environment. I think this may have made the whole affair easier to justify to the new command staff. (A few of which had been on the deployment and pushed for the incentive flights the first two times.)
I think the timing and environment has to be right for the Army to be willing to assume the risk. Keep planting the seed and back it up with sound reasoning. (retention of critical staff, recruiting known known personnel for flight school, etc.)
If you build this case now, and plant the seed, keep pushing for it, then when the environment is right, all of the stars may finally align. It might have to wait until those who are passionate about it now to be promoted to positions of real influence with the BG.
The point I hope to make is this — because the BG and even big Army had to approve it — a request by one individual is dead in the water before it starts. This is a unified effort where you get a critical mass on board and sold on the idea, then together they build a plan for top brass to grant a certain number of slots all at once. It’s important to detail it out as much as possible, so they see the logistics are manageable, probably right down to selection of personnel, and unit risk assessments. (It also happened in a lull, when not many people were tuned in to what the unit was doing. It seems like it was kept quiet so that 20 slots when a long way. It couldn’t have happened during pre-mob or post-mob, or even within a year of each. Every damn body who wasn’t maintenance would’ve had a conniption fit and tried to shut it down because it isn’t “fair”. As evidenced by he fate of our first request. I actually think Our unit command was afraid of reprisals.
Our flights were 30 minutes long and covered a couple hundred miles and a lot of altitude. Once we were up in the air and off the airfield, I was handed the controls for the remainder of the flight. The Instructor talked me through the entire flight and only took over again right before landing (after a short hover attempt was attempted, a little less skillfully, haha). He challenged me to try a few maneuvers including a 30 degree bank turn, (feels like you’re going to fall out the window) which didn’t require as much skill as they did guts. I was incredibly grateful to the unit and that test pilot. As a crewcheif of 9 years, I learned that the machine I had maintained flies like a Ferrari sports car in the rotary wing world. This gave me a whole new respect for my job, my aircraft, and even the flight instructor who took me up. (He was one of the more curmudgeonly and finicky pilots to work with, as a ground crew. Then he was a total bad ass and incredibly friendly in the air, which was a shock because of how strict and hard liner he was on the ground. To think, I was actually bemoaning that I was assigned him as my pilot.)
I immediately began considering flight school seriously and finally put my packet together after 3-4 years of prodding from a handful of our pilots and leaders. In the end, I separated to finish college. Then I was got married and the misses asked me not to join up again.
I share all this to illustrate:
1. Our incentive flights were way, Way more than just a hover. It was an absolutely breathtaking, once-in-a-lifetime experience; and one worth pushing for!
2. We (enlisted, and leadership) pushed for incentive flights a few times, starting in 2005 after returning from Afghanistan. We were denied, if I recall correctly, twice. Then finally granted them in 2010, four years later when transferring out our old fleet that was headed to depot for conversion to delta models. For some reason this was an easier time for our leaders to justify it. (We couldn’t break any of the planes we need to maintain operational readiness?)
3. These served a real purpose for the unit leadership. They seemed to be trying to recruit for flight school internally (although they were NOT restricting who received the flights, a few old guys went). They were also losing a lot of their experienced members who were disenchanted with the unit complexion and leaving the unit for various reasons. This was a time of upheaval, not long after command staff and leadership changes that had created somewhat of a caustic environment. I think this may have made the whole affair easier to justify to the new command staff. (A few of which had been on the deployment and pushed for the incentive flights the first two times.)
I think the timing and environment has to be right for the Army to be willing to assume the risk. Keep planting the seed and back it up with sound reasoning. (retention of critical staff, recruiting known known personnel for flight school, etc.)
If you build this case now, and plant the seed, keep pushing for it, then when the environment is right, all of the stars may finally align. It might have to wait until those who are passionate about it now to be promoted to positions of real influence with the BG.
The point I hope to make is this — because the BG and even big Army had to approve it — a request by one individual is dead in the water before it starts. This is a unified effort where you get a critical mass on board and sold on the idea, then together they build a plan for top brass to grant a certain number of slots all at once. It’s important to detail it out as much as possible, so they see the logistics are manageable, probably right down to selection of personnel, and unit risk assessments. (It also happened in a lull, when not many people were tuned in to what the unit was doing. It seems like it was kept quiet so that 20 slots when a long way. It couldn’t have happened during pre-mob or post-mob, or even within a year of each. Every damn body who wasn’t maintenance would’ve had a conniption fit and tried to shut it down because it isn’t “fair”. As evidenced by he fate of our first request. I actually think Our unit command was afraid of reprisals.
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SGT (Join to see)
Outstanding, I can only hope for that kind of flight. So basically I have to get a group who wants to do an incentive flight ask at the same time? So I start with my SL and it works it’s way up? Is there any paperwork?
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SGT Todd Hooper
You definitely need to sell your leadership on the idea. Real requests will need to come from your E7. It will likely go like this, your E7 and Top will work on the company Commander and CSM. CSM and company commander will work on Unit Commander and state CSM. State CSM and Unit commander will work on the General, who will take the idea, and sell it to the Army.
Somewhere along your chain of command, someone is going to be afraid to push when their first line says “no”. They are all trying to jockey for promotions, and need to seem professional.
It will also need to be merit based to some degree. (Our unit had been awarded an AAAA, and a unit citation within the previous 5 years. This probably helped the BG sell it to the command staff at big Army.)
I’m not suggesting it’s easy, and it will definitely take patience. With no guarantee. But it cannot hurt to build your case and plant the seed.
Paperwork? Sure, but you won’t be dealing with that. Officers will. A written letter stating your case with justification could help your commander catch the vision, and show your first line how to sell it to theirs.
Aside from that, they will have you sign a manifest right before the flight when it happens.
Keep in mind it is a gracious opportunity that may come along, you want to strike the right tone. Even if they approve flights because of your efforts, you may not be selected for one unless everyone who makes decisions thinks you deserve it. I’d say, just work hard and be grateful for everything. Some might say that means “kiss ass”, but really it means just to be a better soldier and contribute more than those around you.
Somewhere along your chain of command, someone is going to be afraid to push when their first line says “no”. They are all trying to jockey for promotions, and need to seem professional.
It will also need to be merit based to some degree. (Our unit had been awarded an AAAA, and a unit citation within the previous 5 years. This probably helped the BG sell it to the command staff at big Army.)
I’m not suggesting it’s easy, and it will definitely take patience. With no guarantee. But it cannot hurt to build your case and plant the seed.
Paperwork? Sure, but you won’t be dealing with that. Officers will. A written letter stating your case with justification could help your commander catch the vision, and show your first line how to sell it to theirs.
Aside from that, they will have you sign a manifest right before the flight when it happens.
Keep in mind it is a gracious opportunity that may come along, you want to strike the right tone. Even if they approve flights because of your efforts, you may not be selected for one unless everyone who makes decisions thinks you deserve it. I’d say, just work hard and be grateful for everything. Some might say that means “kiss ass”, but really it means just to be a better soldier and contribute more than those around you.
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I've never heard of anything more than an apache incentive "hover". And the guys that got to do it didn't ask for it. Their chain just granted it to them for hard work. I'm pretty sure that's how it works for any incentive flight, at least that's how mine have been.
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SGT (Join to see)
In my unit we can get a flight even its local or what not. But we have to start the process for it
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Look at this, many don't know about it, their OCS is the BOTC, a tenant unit at USMMA Kings Point, I saw it when my brother graduated there I commissioned him, I wandered through the BOTC he didn't go that route he was USMS Merchant Marine Reserve (USNR-MMR), however, I did walk through just out of interest, that was qlp, I found it really interesting, honest....
Look at this, many don't know about it, their OCS is the BOTC, a tenant unit at USMMA Kings Point, I saw it when my brother graduated there I commissioned him, I wandered through the BOTC he didn't go that route he was USMS Merchant Marine Reserve (USNR-MMR), however, I did walk through just out of interest, that was qlp, I found it really interesting, honest....
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