Posted on Oct 31, 2019
Where would one look to dispute an event-oriented counseling for an event prior to an initial counseling?
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Where would one look to dispute an event oriented counseling for an event prior to an initial counseling?
I have thumbed through relevant regulations, but have not found anything definitive. It is commonly believed that you cannot be negatively counseled until your initial is complete but where is this written? Looking for a solid rule and not a technique such as in an ATP.
I have thumbed through relevant regulations, but have not found anything definitive. It is commonly believed that you cannot be negatively counseled until your initial is complete but where is this written? Looking for a solid rule and not a technique such as in an ATP.
Counseling
Professional Development
Army Regulations
Posted 6 y ago
Responses: 11
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Counseling is not a reprimand. It's not a punitive action. It's not a negative action.
It's not an accusation, admittance of guilt, or precursor for administrative punishment. A counseling statement does not have any legal or administrative power, it is just a record of events.
A counseling statement is a written documentation by the counselor that you were informed of something. Basically, it is a memorandum for record that a conversation happened. Nothing more.
You can be counseled at any time for any thing. Literally, any two words that the counselor wants to record that they informed you of. There are certain times that counseling is required by regulation or policy. Such as when your ETS date is changed, when you're admitted to a MEB, or when you're flagged or barred. There is no regulation anywhere that says you are not allowed to document a conversation with a Soldier.
It's not an accusation, admittance of guilt, or precursor for administrative punishment. A counseling statement does not have any legal or administrative power, it is just a record of events.
A counseling statement is a written documentation by the counselor that you were informed of something. Basically, it is a memorandum for record that a conversation happened. Nothing more.
You can be counseled at any time for any thing. Literally, any two words that the counselor wants to record that they informed you of. There are certain times that counseling is required by regulation or policy. Such as when your ETS date is changed, when you're admitted to a MEB, or when you're flagged or barred. There is no regulation anywhere that says you are not allowed to document a conversation with a Soldier.
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You can be counseled at anytime. Counseling prior to an initial , should be as warnings for violations. The only thing the initial does is to inform you of the expectations and grading scheme of the counselor.
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You won’t find it because it doesn’t exist. The way to dispute an event oriented counseling is to demonstrate the event didn’t happen.
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SSG (Join to see)
what if the event did happen and it was interpreted to be negative solely for the purpose of establishing a pattern of misconduct when there is none?
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MSG Gary Eckert
SSG (Join to see) I am having a hard time imagining an event that could be interpreted in a negative light and be misconduct or in a positive manner where it would not be misconduct. Regardless, initial counseling sets performance expectations. It wouldn’t occur to me include telling an NCO to not commit misconduct during that conversation.
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SSG Brian G.
SSG (Join to see) - Ok, you are saying the event did happen, so there is no dispute. It was simply how the person writing the counseling chose to view it. You got counseled on the event. The thing about counselings is that YOU might not view it the same as your counselor. Hence why the SM is provided a block to disagree and offer a rebuttal as to the events. The counselor does not get a say whether you do or do not utilize this. But be careful in your wording.
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SGM Jeff Mccloud
SSG (Join to see) - A counseling statement does not establish a pattern of misconduct, a Soldier does that. The counseling is intended to prevent the Soldier from establishing a pattern of misconduct.
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There is no Army requirement for a Soldier to receive an initial counseling before that Soldier can receive an event oriented counseling, so you won't find it in writing.
If the Soldier disagreed with what was discussed during the counseling session, or what was written on the DA 4856, the counseled Soldier should have indicated so in the appropriate block of Part III on the 4856.
If the Soldier disagreed with what was discussed during the counseling session, or what was written on the DA 4856, the counseled Soldier should have indicated so in the appropriate block of Part III on the 4856.
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Ok, first off... STOP LISTENING TO BARRACKS LAWYERS. They know nothing and tend to make a situation worse than it ever should be.
Second, you can be counseled with negative, positive, or neutral comments at any time. It is not a reprimand. It is simply acknowledging that an event happened and putting it into a temporary record form that goes away when you leave the unit. There is NO requirement that you must receive and initial counseling prior to any others.
Second, you can be counseled with negative, positive, or neutral comments at any time. It is not a reprimand. It is simply acknowledging that an event happened and putting it into a temporary record form that goes away when you leave the unit. There is NO requirement that you must receive and initial counseling prior to any others.
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SSG Brian G.
I'll give you an example of what I mean. I PCSed to Germany from CONUS. During the flight I noted a SM several rows up on the flight and he was wearing BDU's, not just wearing them on a flight but was wearing the blouse unbuttoned and had the patrol cap canted. I took a moment to speak the individual. Turns out he was a SM as well. I spot corrected him to the fact that by regs it was not allowed to travel wearing BDU's and that he was restricted to two modes of wear, Class A's or civilian clothing. He pulled his carry on and changed. Later upon landing and final dispersion to my unit, I find that said SM was not just in my unit, but in my section.
I initiated a counseling statement based upon the actions aboard the aircraft. A few days later he received his initial counseling from me as his incoming NCOIC.
I initiated a counseling statement based upon the actions aboard the aircraft. A few days later he received his initial counseling from me as his incoming NCOIC.
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Suspended Profile
To echo some of the other comments, no requirement to initial before other types of counseling.
However, I’d consider it a good practice to initial before other counseling. Mainly because it allows expectations to be stated and documented between leader and led.
In an instance where an infraction could have been prevented by prior understanding of expectations, it may save future heartache.
However, I’d consider it a good practice to initial before other counseling. Mainly because it allows expectations to be stated and documented between leader and led.
In an instance where an infraction could have been prevented by prior understanding of expectations, it may save future heartache.
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How is that a joe rumor that has any credibility? Initial counselings do not contain secret words you have to hear before you can be held responsible for your actions. You're a NCO, you should know how to conduct yourself. You should also have the cojones to tell your boss, "SSG, I need some counseling."
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You can be court martial Ed prior to an initial counseling (for the right offense), why can they not give you a negative counseling prior to. You will find nothing supporting that theory. Thank you for your service.
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